NAB13- Dragon Sensor Upgrade Program begins

[Elsie N]

I never said that even a student shouldn't be able to shoot on an Epic, I just stated that you have to weigh in your expectations for its value. If you have no way to earn that investment back when you purchased it, then perhaps you need to consider that at the time of purchase and have NO expectations to have it pay for itself. That's why I called it a loss-leader. You are buying it with the expectancy of a non-recouped loss. That's fine. But to buy something and then whine about its value or how the upgrade path is bullshit, but only from the perspective of someone who never earned the investment back is one-sided.

I come from a working cinematographer's stand point. Even wildlife, documentary and still photographers are earning some value out of the investment if they are using it on paid jobs, regardless if they charge a formal "rental" fee or not.

I think my thinking is just fine, thanks.

As long as you agree that everyone is entitled to own and shoot RED cameras, that they are not just for a certain segment, then I agree your thinking is just fine. '-)

 

[Elsie N]

That's all fine and good, and I agree with the notion of purchasing a camera for your own stuff 100%. The problem is, IF that's why you purchased it, then that means you don't have any "competitors" since you're not really in the market as a freelancer. So then why would you care if your "competitors" have the new Dragon and your Epic is suddenly "obsolete". Does me having a dragon make YOUR wildlife footage suddenly look any worse overnight? Ofcourse not. Even the old Mysterium Red One from 2007 still looks amazing so why would someone who's not a pro shooter even care, your Scarlet is still a great camera and was still a GREAT deal when you purchased it for 9950$ when the closest competitors to it were priced in the 15,000 - 70,000 range and still didn't have features that even came close to what Scarlet offers, etc.

Steve, I'm not going to deny anything you said above because I know it is all true to you. And I admit being a little dismayed when I saw the sticker price on the sensor upgrade and even more dismay when I read that it is only warranted for 90 days. As I've followed the NAB threads I've come to understand that this sensor has been a huge undertaking to bring it to readiness (New ASIC etc.) so I've swallowed, cleared my throat, and got in line for an upgrade.

But I think I am more accepting of the upgrade program and cost because I am not focusing on what others may be getting later and whether or not they are getting a better deal. I am focusing on what MY camera will be able to do once the upgrade is in place. I had intended to do both cameras at once but with the new pricing I am only going to do one, so yeah, I'm having to change plans. But I will upgrade the second camera later on, probably about the time the new $24,000 Epics are available.

Still, I won't compare my cameras to those new ones going out the door. I will just be thankful that I was able to shoot with one camera for however long before that happens with arguably the best damn camera period.

As you can see from my post 393, we are not in disagreement, personally.

 

[Christopher Probst]

Of course I do. That's why I prefaced in the post way back about investments and expectations... Clearly Steve is from a position of not having earned his money back on the Scarlett.

I have a friend who bought an Epic so that he could use it on little music videos and small paid jobs to build a reel. He has no expectation of paying off that Epic any time soon. That is not the point for him. He's investing in developing his reel. That is is LOSS-LEADER. He's shouldering the loss of investment to lead to better money down the road. That is a perfectly valid reason to own ANY camera.

But he is not online whining about his loss of value in said camera when a very GENEROUS upgrade path is provided for his camera.

Everyone is fixated on their own individual perspectives, we must weigh in the big picture. I can't wait to upgrade and reap the benefits of this new technology in my work immediately. And it WILL pay for itself within my business model, so it's a total no-brainer.

That may not be the case for everyone.

 

[Nik Harper]

Of course I do. That's why I prefaced in the post way back about investments and expectations... Clearly Steve is from a position of not having earned his money back on the Scarlett.

I have a friend who bought an Epic so that he could use it on little music videos and small paid jobs to build a reel. He has no expectation of paying off that Epic any time soon. That is not the point for him. He's investing in developing his reel. That is is LOSS-LEADER. He's shouldering the loss of investment to lead to better money down the road. That is a perfectly valid reason to own ANY camera.

But he is not online whining about his loss of value in said camera when a very GENEROUS upgrade path is provided for his camera.

Everyone is fixated on their own individual perspectives, we must weigh in the big picture. I can't wait to upgrade and reap the benefits of this new technology in my work immediately. And it WILL pay for itself within my business model, so it's a total no-brainer.

That may not be the case for everyone.

Exactly. Well said, as you have multiple times.

 

[Lauri Kettunen]

Let's just change the subject, it's getting ridiculous at this point

So what about thinking the other way around: Is it that bad if one is able to get the camera that is employed in recent major movies for $12.5K. And what if one is able to get the camera that is going to be used in the next year's major movies for $9.5K. For me this is beyond what I could have never ever dreamed at the time of DV and MiniDV cameras. If it keeps going on this way, these equipments will become really affordable, and that's what most of the people are actually waiting for. ;-)

 

[Elsie N]

Thank God!

AKA, Jim. '-)

 

[Christopher Probst]

The point of all of my ranting is this... if you are not working enough as a cinematographer (and are not paying off your camera because of it) stop being a disgruntled keyboard warrior and get out there and start shooting ANYTHING you can. Specs, free-bes, whatever and develop your skills. Build a reel that WILL get you paid jobs and rental of your equipment. The fault lies only in yourself.

There are way too many who are content in blaming others for their lot in life. Take the bull by the horns and responsibility in your own hands. If you are AMAZING and have a reel that makes jaws drop, AND are super easy to work with, then all of this bickering should be a moot point because you're too damn busy to notice. Go make THAT happen and shut the fuck up.

 

[Eric Haase]

With respect to colour matching, yes, the Dragon matches with previous RED cameras, but with the warning that where the Dragon portrays colour more accurately, there will be differences. The difference with the Dragon chip is that obviously it's a different chip and we've made numerous changes to improve colorimetry (based on what we've been learning these last few years), and the software color science side necessarily reflects those physical changes. It's not a completely different look on the Dragon, but it's obviously not identical either, or else where would the improvements be?

Graeme

CAN'T WAIT FOR THE NEW COLOR Graeme. WHEN?

Awesome! The cameras being upgraded right now, what color science are they using?

Eric

 

[Nik Harper]

So what about thinking the other way around: Is it that bad if one is able to get the camera that is employed in recent major movies for $12.5K. And what if one is able to get the camera that is going to be used in the next year's major movies for $9.5K. For me this is beyond what I could have never ever dreamed at the time of DV and MiniDV cameras. If it keeps going on this way, these equipments will become really affordable, and that's what most of the people are actually waiting for. ;-)

Thats great too!
I think it's all about options and what's best for you.

 

[Jean Guerra]

does the dragon upgrade on epic m , upgrades the silent fan and antenna to??

 

[Nik Harper]

does the dragon upgrade on epic m , upgrades the silent fan and antenna to??

No the fans are a separate thing that you can buy.

 

[Sanjin Jukic]

The point of all of my ranting is this... if you are not working enough as a cinematographer (and are not paying off your camera because of it) stop being a disgruntled keyboard warrior and get out there and start shooting ANYTHING you can. Specs, free-bes, whatever and develop your skills. Build a reel that WILL get you paid jobs and rental of your equipment. The fault lies only in yourself.

There are way too many who are content in blaming others for their lot in life. Take the bull by the horns and responsibility in your own hands. If you are AMAZING and have a reel that makes jaws drop, AND are super easy to work with, then all of this bickering should be a moot point because you're too damn busy to notice. Go make THAT happen and shut the fuck up.

Forum Post Of The Day !!!!!

 

[Hrvoje Simic]

That's phenomenal. If that is true then that one fact will be the biggest news in cinematography this year. Do you really mean that the sensor itself is 16bit or just the processing in the camera?

My mistake: 12 and 16 bit
http://www.red.com/products/epic-dragon#tech-specs
It's in REDCODE section

It's in the Redcode section because those 12 and 16 bits represent bit depth of the recording format.

80 dB sensor requires at least 14 bit ADC.

 

[Tor Øra]

When we send in our Epics for Dragon upgrade, do we get the DRAGON branded under the RED on the side SSD recorder as well?? Hope so.

 

[Adam Watson]

Is there ANY footage someone can point to? Can't find any and I'm surprised so many people are upgrading their cameras to a sensor that no one has seen any footage from. A picture of a fake lizard doesn't cut it.

 

[Elsie N]

Is there ANY footage someone can point to? Can't find any and I'm surprised so many people are upgrading their cameras to a sensor that no one has seen any footage from. A picture of a fake lizard doesn't cut it.

Some of us just willing to take a leap of faith, based on RED's track record of getting it right in the end.

 

[justin brooks]

might be too early for this question, but if one where to purchase a scarlet-X in the next month or so, is there still an ability to upgrade the scarlet to the dragon sensor in the future?

 

[Andy Roberts]

Is there ANY footage someone can point to? Can't find any and I'm surprised so many people are upgrading their cameras to a sensor that no one has seen any footage from. A picture of a fake lizard doesn't cut it.

One begins to see that with attitudes like this, it is no wonder that Red rewards the early adopters, those brave few who trust Jim and company to put out something great. The issue is TRACK RECORD. Who NEEDS to see footage when Red has such a proven track record. Jumping on board as early as possible, sight unseen, puts a rental company and a shooter into rare (and valuable $$$) company and ownership.

So wait until you SEE to believe. Those who trust based on TRACK RECORD will be rewarded for their bravery.

(I know no one likes to talk about Christianity on this forum, but I just have to point out that this issue has been going on for a LONG time. When Thomas doubted that Jesus was resurrected from the dead, he said he needed PROOF. Jesus gave Thomas proof and showed him the scars in His hands and feet. But then Jesus said, "Happy are those who believe WITHOUT SEEING." Now I am NOT (x100) implying that Red is a religion or that Jim and Co. are divine. My point is... there are those who MUST SEE PROOF and those who understand the character of those involved and have learned how to TRUST. Trust is a good thing).

 

[Andy Roberts]

I wrote my note and see that Elsie already used my key word: Track Record... He also used that other word: Faith :thumbup1:

 

[Ryan Sauve]

I don't understand this "if you make good money or you've already paid off your camera, then there's nothing to worry about". I paid off my Scarlet on my first gig with it but still agree with Steve. I thought his point was that the total costs (original purchase + upgrades) end up costing more than buying new, which is true. And for the upgrade price to cost more than a new camera? To me, it feels like a glorified trade in program. I don't discount the awesomeness of the new dragon tech, I just find it odd that the new tech that you can upgrade to costs almost twice the price of a used Scarlet. I may upgrade but I'll definitely evaluate my options. Still excited to see the picture Dragon produces though!