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  • Hey all, just changed over the backend after 15 years I figured time to give it a bit of an update, its probably gonna be a bit weird for most of you and i am sure there is a few bugs to work out but it should kinda work the same as before... hopefully :)

NAB13- Dragon Sensor Upgrade Program begins

steve duncan said:
I'm going to wait this out and hope....
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And while you wait, the rest of us are going to make money with the best camera in the world... thankful for our Red products and thankful for an upgrade path.

Red team... please ignore the negativity.
 
Exactly Peter... I have a small studio feature I will be shooting in June on Dragons and will be able to do things not possible with the MX. AND that feature film will PAY OFF the upgrade 3-fold... Do that math Steve!
 
Andy Roberts said:
And while you wait, the rest of us are going to make money with the best camera in the world... thankful for our Red products and thankful for an upgrade path.

Red team... please ignore the negativity.
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Yeah exactly. Let him wait and have his gear "depreciate" even more while the rest of us are shooting and making bank with a camera that's arguably the most powerful in the world, yet costs 1/5th of its next best competitor LOL
 
Blair S. Paulsen said:
Props to Jarred and the RedUser forum for allowing Steve to rant. Agree with him or not, at least his opinion wasn't silenced. Just sayin'

Cheers - #19
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Steve's opinion isn't at issue. The real issue is people who buy cameras for the wrong reasons. First off. If you are not a working cinematographer or a rental house, why buy a camera?

If you buy the camera as a learning tool, then you have to consider that investment as a loss-leader. An investment in your education to build a reel and seek jobs. If you are already working, then is it wise to buy a camera at so and so time? Is the investment wise? Will you make your money back? OR will it lead to more jobs for you (and make you more money, effectively making its investment back?)...

Some random kid on the street owning an Epic Dragon isn't going to make him in demand to shoot the next Batman movie... Buy a camera when it's logical and a sound investment to do so. If you're not there yet, then don't complain when you don't get your money's worth out of it.

It's just that simple.
 
steve duncan said:
A used Epic is now only worth 12.5k because the new dragon sensor Epic is being priced at 24k, and the upgrade price is a ridiculous 9.5K. That drove the Epic price down from 16.5K yesterday, to about 12k today. Why-- because nobody would pay 17.5K for an epic now when you can get a new Dragon Epic for 24K. By pricing a new Dragon Epic so low, and making the upgrade so expensive, RED drove all there current camera owners values down 35%. Take an extreme example where RED says the upgrade price is 50K, and the RED Epic Dragon was on sale for 15K. Your Scarlet would be worth around 4k, regardless if there selling new for 10k on their site. Why? Because the upgrade price doesn't make it feasible to upgrade, and you can get a brand new upgraded camera for only 15k.

Please don't say were lucky RED is an upgradeable camera-- that was originally part of the deal. Buy RED they're all upgradeable. Not buy RED, but the upgrade price is so ridiculous that anyone off the street can buy the same camera for less than your upgrade price. Remember- you're path to upgrade puts you at 29K for a camera with a 90 day warranty. You can get a brand new RED Epic Dragon for 24k with a 2 yr warranty on an amex card, and probably a free flight. You can shake the numbers anyway you want.. the numbers don't lie.

Take a big gulp boys and go upgrade your cameras as a loyal RED fan, for a price well beyond what total strangers are paying.

Or don't upgrade. Nobody needs a dragon sensor to shoot a great product. Make RED wait 6 months-- lets see if they'll reconsider charging us more than strangers.
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Dude, all I'm saying is that an extra $9,500 to get Epic M-X is a damn good deal. I'm taking advantage of that because it's offered to me.
If I feel like getting dragon later then I'll do that too.

Everybody who is talking about factoring in the money/use you get out of it is right.
That has to be factored in dude.
Otherwise you really are talking about buying a camera so that it can sit there.
Of course that's going to lose value.

I think you're being a little bit close minded about the options involved here.
You're taking what everybody says as evidence that they're being fanboys.
That's bullshit, they're also offering up some valid points that you're seemingly not listening to.

I get what you're saying but it doesn't really apply as much.
I've gotten great use out of my camera and also made money off of it.
Financially, this is a really great deal for me and apparently many others.
 
Laco Zamba said:
June? Dragon? Hmmm, .... you are big optimist :-)
June 2013?
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ALSO why I opted to get an EPIC M...

Mid-June and I fucking hope so! I'll be banging on Jarred's door for sure. That's one advantage of living in Southern California... I'm close enough to be a nuisance!
 
Christopher Probst said:
ALSO why I opted to get an EPIC M...

Mid-June and I fucking hope so! I'll be banging on Jarred's door for sure. That's one advantage of living in Southern California... I'm close enough to be a nuisance!
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OK, good luck. I will write you in June :-)
Because: new ASICs, new sensor, no color science, no testing, ... you know :-)
 
Christopher Probst said:
ALSO why I opted to get an EPIC M...

Mid-June and I fucking hope so! I'll be banging on Jarred's door for sure. That's one advantage of living in Southern California... I'm close enough to be a nuisance!
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You can always shoot it on the Blackmagic if dragon doesn't arrive in time ;) :P
 
Christopher Probst said:
ALSO why I opted to get an EPIC M...

Mid-June and I fucking hope so! I'll be banging on Jarred's door for sure. That's one advantage of living in Southern California... I'm close enough to be a nuisance!
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I'm sure they'l take care of ya by then. I'd be more worried about unfinished color science and other features as they're talking about
 
Christopher Probst said:
Steve's opinion isn't at issue. The real issue is people who buy cameras for the wrong reasons. First off. If you are not a working cinematographer or a rental house, why buy a camera?

....
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Christopher, broaden your thinking. Some of us buy cameras to shoot our own scripts. Why? Because we work on small budgets (and I mean REALLY small) and that means shooting slow and oft times, occasionally. A rental would soon turn into the price of a camera in a long drawn out shoot. And in my case the nearest rental house would probably be 300 miles away.

And don't forget the wildlife, documentary, and yes... stills photographers who use the Epic. (Almost forgot wedding shooters)

This cameras is for anyone who can frame a subject. Steve belongs in this group and is just as entitled as you or I to shoot this format.
 
Elsie N said:
Christopher, broaden your thinking. Some of us buy cameras to shoot our own scripts. Why? Because we work on small budgets (and I mean REALLY small) and that means shooting slow and oft times, occasionally. A rental would soon turn into the price of a camera in a long drawn out shoot. And in my case the nearest rental house would probably be 300 miles away.

And don't forget the wildlife, documentary, and yes... stills photographers who use the Epic. (Almost forgot wedding shooters)

This cameras is for anyone who can frame a subject. Steve belongs in this group and is just as entitled as you or I to shoot this format.
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That's all fine and good, and I agree with the notion of purchasing a camera for your own stuff 100%. The problem is, IF that's why you purchased it, then that means you don't have any "competitors" since you're not really in the market as a freelancer. So then why would you care if your "competitors" have the new Dragon and your Epic is suddenly "obsolete". Does me having a dragon make YOUR wildlife footage suddenly look any worse overnight? Ofcourse not. Even the old Mysterium Red One from 2007 still looks amazing so why would someone who's not a pro shooter even care, your Scarlet is still a great camera and was still a GREAT deal when you purchased it for 9950$ when the closest competitors to it were priced in the 15,000 - 70,000 range and still didn't have features that even came close to what Scarlet offers, etc.
 
Elsie N said:
Christopher, broaden your thinking. Some of us buy cameras to shoot our own scripts. Why? Because we work on small budgets (and I mean REALLY small) and that means shooting slow and oft times, occasionally. A rental would soon turn into the price of a camera in a long drawn out shoot. And in my case the nearest rental house would probably be 300 miles away.

And don't forget the wildlife, documentary, and yes... stills photographers who use the Epic. (Almost forgot wedding shooters)

This cameras is for anyone who can frame a subject. Steve belongs in this group and is just as entitled as you or I to shoot this format.
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I never said that even a student shouldn't be able to shoot on an Epic, I just stated that you have to weigh in your expectations for its value. If you have no way to earn that investment back when you purchased it, then perhaps you need to consider that at the time of purchase and have NO expectations to have it pay for itself. That's why I called it a loss-leader. You are buying it with the expectancy of a non-recouped loss. That's fine. But to buy something and then whine about its value or how the upgrade path is bullshit, but only from the perspective of someone who never earned the investment back is one-sided.

I come from a working cinematographer's stand point. Even wildlife, documentary and still photographers are earning some value out of the investment if they are using it on paid jobs, regardless if they charge a formal "rental" fee or not.

I think my thinking is just fine, thanks.
 
steve duncan said:
A used Epic is now only worth 12.5k because the new dragon sensor Epic is being priced at 24k, and the upgrade price is a ridiculous 9.5K.
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You are always welcome to go and design then spin your own ASIC, pay to develop the sensor and firmware (including debug, test an manufacture) ... then come back and report how "ridiculous" the upgrade cost is ...plus no one is forcing you to buy it.
 
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