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  • Hey all, just changed over the backend after 15 years I figured time to give it a bit of an update, its probably gonna be a bit weird for most of you and i am sure there is a few bugs to work out but it should kinda work the same as before... hopefully :)

NAB13- Dragon Sensor Upgrade Program begins

steve duncan said:
I think maybe you shouldn't upgrade either one....
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Let me just say that if for some reason RED chose NOT to let me upgrade my cameras, my RED WRATH would be 10 times the anger you've exhibited.
 
shashbugu said:
Your math is just as wrong as his. Keep your scarlet and get a red dragon for 24k, that's the real value.
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Where was my math wrong?

Also it's about how much you have, I could more easily upgrade to an Epic and have the framerates that I want and then later upgrade to the Dragon sensor.

Only because I don't have 24K available.

Just doing it the way that is the best for me.

If I could do it your way, I would.
 
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steve duncan said:
I think maybe you shouldn't upgrade either one. I went from pride swallowing to anger at these prices. Upgrades shouldn't cost 100% more than the original product. That's not an upgrade, that's just buying a new camera. IF Sony comes out in 2013 with a great 4K camera for 12K.... and two years later they release the same model with a new sensor for 14k-- you would buy it, and than own two cameras. What sane company would charge you the same cost as a new camera, just to upgrade one part? It's beyond insane.

I'm hoping everyone comes to their senses when the hype dies down, and does the smart thing-- tell RED they've overpriced themselves, and make them come down to what an upgrade should be-- 50% or 60% of the original cost-- 5k or 6k. sorry to disagree-- R&D costs of a new sensor is not more than the R&D of the entire camera including sensor in 2011 which was selling for 10.5K. It's beyond absurd. A new scarlet dragon should cost 17K, and the upgrade price should 5K. 2K less then what a new RED customer pays, not 3k more. A Dragon Epic should be 6k to upgrade as well.

And the utter arrogance to charge these prices, without even offering their customers a glimpse of what the sensor can do. All RED has really done, is slashed the values of the current RED cameras, by giving new customers a much better deal.

Epics value in one week went from 16K to 11k. And Scarlet values went from 8.5K to 5k. All because of RED's greed to grab new market share, at your expense! All for a sensor nobody has even seen yet. Greedy and arrogance all rolled up in this silly ploy to force owners to upgrade or lose the value of their camera. One way to push back... Don't buy it. Wait a year. With what Sony and Black Magic have in store for 2014-- don't let RED coral you into thinking you need to spend this money.
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The value of a camera is only as much as the use it gets. I paid for my first Red in 2006. Still have the descendant of that original Red One in my Epic. And have made back all my investments several fold and will continue to do so with subsequent cameras.

You seem rather obsessed with the resale value of cameras. It is as if you are more keen on selling them then actually using them. Either way, if you are not happy with the deal you got, then sell out and buy another camera from another brand. It is a market economy after all.

Many will find great uses for dragon. I know I certainly will. It is unfortunate that you can not find a good use for yours, but I highly doubt that whining and complaining as you have been doing on this forum will achieve anything purposeful at all other than a few meaningless arguments on this thread.

Best of luck with your next camera, whatever it is.
 
Steve, in my opinion RED made a huge technological accomplishment with the new sensor. 3 additional stops of DR is unheard of. It is their right to price it the way they esteem. Nobody forces you to buy it! The hobbit was shot with the same camera tech you own. Instead of crying out loud about their in my view very fair pricing policy get out and shoot some nice stuff and sell it. Go to dubai and make some commercials with 0% income tax and bill nice rates.

In the end this is camera technology, everyone knows how fast that depreciates in our times. In my view it is your fault that you are frustrated if you cant generate enough cash-flows with such a professional tool. In the end, RED is a professional cinema camera company and not digitalbolex! It is already a miracle that they made cinema gear affordable for mortals. A few years ago we were talking about 200k cameras! And now? Where are we? Dont expect them to price it so that everyone, including the hobbyists, grandmas, rich kids, dentists or whoever is happy all the time. You can't invest millions in revolutionary sensor technology and give it away for free so that everyone writes nice forum posts. I'm glad they're pricing their products well, because that allows them to reinvest capital into R&D and create amazing products and deliver amazing service.

If you want a cheap camera, go to Blackmagic. But in my view those products are just not comparable by any means. Ergonomically,service-wise, build-quality-wise, sensor-tech wise etc. this is comparing a professional tool with a more consumer focused tool.

I understand your frustation but let's just not forget that RED's original business segment are professionals from the cinema industry and just because they made the tools affordable for anyone doesnt mean they all of a sudden have an obligation to make everyone happy out of their core customer base.

I highly respect RED for what they are doing but and just want to point out that one should realize they arent selling Canon 5Ds ... but the camera sensor with the greatest latitude in the industry. If it weren't for red, we would all probably pay 20k for a Sony camera that records 2k at 60fps still. Competition is great and RED is great at that and I am glad they are.
 
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Nik Harper said:
Where was my math wrong?

Also it's about how much you have, I could more easily upgrade to an Epic and have the framerates that I want and then late upgrade to the Dragon sensor.

Only because I don't have 24K available.

Just doing it the way that is the best for me.

If I could do it your way, I would.
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I did not mean you as in you yourself Nik. I meant 24k would give you two cameras as opposed to 19k for one, or simply do the sensor upgrade for $9500 and pray for noise reduction. At that point you'll have an incredible camera shooting vista vision images from a body you are already used to
 
Nik Harper said:
Steve, your math is wrong.

Who bough a Scarlet brain for 10.5K? No one, you're adding the price of the Side SSD and the mount into that. That takes off another 3.5K.
Not to mention, I have to say, upgrading my Scarlet to an Epic is a really damn good deal.

I can understand frustration but I think you're blowing it a little out of proportion saying that they're getting greedy and all that.
Also I don't thing you can compare this upgrade to two black magic cameras.
We're not talking about 4K anymore it's 6K, this sensor put your camera a couple years ahead of black magic with either option.

Not to mention all of Black Magic cameras are severely lacking in features.
I mean if all you care about is having the number 4 followed by a "K" then it doesn't make a difference to you but Black Magic doesn't have the full package.
Especially in the (but not limited to) framerates department.

Look at it this way, you could either buy a brand new Epic Dragon for 24K or get one for 19K. That's a damn good deal and I'll be taking it.

Sorry but where is the greed in that?
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I bought yy Scarlet brain for 10.5K in 2010. Didn't come with anything. I'm not buying into the 4k / 6k hype at all. Any cinematographer will tell you that Alexa at 2k, is a much better digital image than anything else at 4k.

And it's your math that is wrong... if you paid 10k for a Scarlet body, like most of us have-- you don't get to Epic Dragon at 19K. You get to Epic Dragon at 10K (original cost) + 9.5K (to Epic upgrade) + 9.5K = 29K. A guy off the street that never even thought of RED gets an Epic Dragon, brand new with warranty for 5K less than your upgrade path.

Sadly for Scarlet owners-- if you choose to upgrade to Epic for 9,500-- you get a camera that's only worth 12.5k right now. Why you may ask? Because a new Dragon Epic with a one year warranty is priced at 24k. you subtract 9.5K upgrade price from it, you get 14.5K. 14.5K is for a brand new camera with a one yr warranty. you're upgrade only gets you a 90 day warranty- which knocks a couple grand off the price.

So you're going to spend 9.5K for an upgrade (19.5K total) to get a camera that's worth 12.5k. That make a lot of sense. Then you still need to pay another 9.5K to get the Dragon.

So you have a RED SCarlet for 10k. RED is asking you to pay 9.5k more (19.5K total) to get a camera worth 12.5k. To shell out another 9.5K (29K) to get a camera (Epic Dragon) worth 22.5k. Why is an upgraded Epic Dragon from Scarlet only worth 22.5K (and not 24.5K)? B/c you only get a 90 day warranty on an untested camera. People rather pay 2k more for a full year warranty. And if you buy a new Epic Dragon, on your Amex card- they'll double the warranty to 2 years.

As i said in my original post-- RED really hooked up complete strangers with a great deal, and totally screwed their camera owners here. May take a month or so to sink in-- trust me, I ran all the numbers. It's a crap deal for Epic / Scarlet owners.





Black Magic isn't the answer right now-- but in a year, it really could be.
 
Denis Murin said:
Indeed. Does anyone actually have working Epic Dragon? At this point I would love to see footage, any footage at all. Your cat would suffice really.
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As pointed by Jared in the first post, the cameras will be handed to their owners a week after NAB ends. I gues we'll have to wait that long to see any new footage. Color science doesn't seem to be ready by now.
 
shashbugu said:
I did not mean you as in you yourself Nik. I meant 24k would give you two cameras as opposed to 19k for one, or simply do the sensor upgrade for $9500 and pray for noise reduction. At that point you'll have an incredible camera shooting vista vision images from a body you are already used to
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Right, I see what you're saying. That is a good point.
I'll definitely have to think that over!
I have plenty of time.

Cheers
 
steve duncan said:
I bought yy Scarlet brain for 10.5K in 2010. Didn't come with anything. I'm not buying into the 4k / 6k hype at all. Any cinematographer will tell you that Alexa at 2k, is a much better digital image than anything else at 4k.

And it's your math that is wrong... if you paid 10k for a Scarlet body, like most of us have-- you don't get to Epic Dragon at 19K. You get to Epic Dragon at 10K (original cost) + 9.5K (to Epic upgrade) + 9.5K = 29K. A guy off the street that never even thought of RED gets an Epic Dragon, brand new with warranty for 5K less than your upgrade path.

Sadly for Scarlet owners-- if you choose to upgrade to Epic for 9,500-- you get a camera that's only worth 12.5k right now. Why you may ask? Because a new Dragon Epic with a one year warranty is priced at 24k. you subtract 9.5K upgrade price from it, you get 14.5K. 14.5K is for a brand new camera with a one yr warranty. you're upgrade only gets you a 90 day warranty- which knocks a couple grand off the price.

So you're going to spend 9.5K for an upgrade (19.5K total) to get a camera that's worth 12.5k. That make a lot of sense. Then you still need to pay another 9.5K to get the Dragon.

So you have a RED SCarlet for 10k. RED is asking you to pay 9.5k more (19.5K total) to get a camera worth 12.5k. To shell out another 9.5K (29K) to get a camera (Epic Dragon) worth 22.5k. Why is an upgraded Epic Dragon from Scarlet only worth 22.5K (and not 24.5K)? B/c you only get a 90 day warranty on an untested camera. People rather pay 2k more for a full year warranty. And if you buy a new Epic Dragon, on your Amex card- they'll double the warranty to 2 years.

As i said in my original post-- RED really hooked up complete strangers with a great deal, and totally screwed their camera owners here. May take a month or so to sink in-- trust me, I ran all the numbers. It's a crap deal for Epic / Scarlet owners.





Black Magic isn't the answer right now-- but in a year, it really could be.
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Okay, I see what you're saying.

But you are still getting some of it wrong. Why is an Epic only worth 12.5K to you?
A new one is 17.5K.

But really the main thing we have to get here is that you're mad at the price of an upgrade.

It's just an option honestly.
You said not to use certain things as excuses but those things are legitimate grounds not to complain.

No other company does offer upgrades like that.

They could have just not offered any upgrade and then you would either be stuck with your camera or buy a new one.
It seems to me that RED would like all of their customers to have a chance to be up to speed with their tech.

Again it's just an option.
You're right, you could just buy a new Epic, that's another option.
Or buy a different camera, that's another option.

I bought my camera for the specs it came with not the ones that it might have.
 
steve duncan said:
I bought yy Scarlet brain for 10.5K in 2010. Didn't come with anything. I'm not buying into the 4k / 6k hype at all. Any cinematographer will tell you that Alexa at 2k, is a much better digital image than anything else at 4k.




Black Magic isn't the answer right now-- but in a year, it really could be.
Click to expand...

I happen to own an Arri Alexa plus, which was 110k, plus 20k for Raw recording. Without the Raw recorder it's less than half the resolution of your Scarlet, but it rents at twice the price of an alexa ev or Epic. Demand and supply. I'm business man. Most of my personal work is shot with an Epic. Common sense dictates.
 
Ivan Kovax said:
You seem rather obsessed with the resale value of cameras. It is as if you are more keen on selling them then actually using them. Either way, if you are not happy with the deal you got, then sell out and buy another camera from another brand. It is a market economy after all.

Many will find great uses for dragon. I know I certainly will. It is unfortunate that you can not find a good use for yours, but I highly doubt that whining and complaining as you have been doing on this forum will achieve anything purposeful at all
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Listen, nobody likes seeing their investment drop 30% in a day, whether you want to sell or not. And we, the current RED owners, shouldn't be getting a worse deal than someone off the street. You rave about a sensor as a good value for 9.5K-- you haven't even seen any moving images from said sensor. How can I find good use for a sensor that hasn't even produced a moving image yet? I think the upgrade is severely overpriced considering what they're selling the new cameras for with the included upgrades. That's just my opinion. Whether you made millions off of using RED like Peter Jackson did, or you made nothing is not really relevant.

I think it's arrogant that RED thinks their user base is so loyal that they can give better pricing to complete strangers. RED had told all their Scarlet owners, that they're buying into an upgradeable camera. But they're current pricing is showing that that is not the case at all. A road to upgrade to RED Epic Dragon is 19k with 90 day warranty. A brand new Epic Dragon (where you can keep your original Scarlet) is 24k and comes with a 2 yr warranty if you put it on your Amex card.

There's a price where an upgrade really isn't an upgrade-- it's gouging you to the extent that you may as well just buy a brand new camera. My point is simple-- it's not worth upgrading your Scarlet. And Epic owners that paid 19k recently for their cameras-- shouldn't have an upgrade path that is 5K more that what a complete stranger would pay for the camera now. Now you owned your RED since the beginning-- so you're not as affected as some of us others. I don't pretend to know your situation, so don't pretend to know mine.

sd
 
steve duncan said:
I bought yy Scarlet brain for 10.5K in 2010. Didn't come with anything. I'm not buying into the 4k / 6k hype at all. Any cinematographer will tell you that Alexa at 2k, is a much better digital image than anything else at 4k.

And it's your math that is wrong... if you paid 10k for a Scarlet body, like most of us have-- you don't get to Epic Dragon at 19K. You get to Epic Dragon at 10K (original cost) + 9.5K (to Epic upgrade) + 9.5K = 29K. A guy off the street that never even thought of RED gets an Epic Dragon, brand new with warranty for 5K less than your upgrade path.

Sadly for Scarlet owners-- if you choose to upgrade to Epic for 9,500-- you get a camera that's only worth 12.5k right now. Why you may ask? Because a new Dragon Epic with a one year warranty is priced at 24k. you subtract 9.5K upgrade price from it, you get 14.5K. 14.5K is for a brand new camera with a one yr warranty. you're upgrade only gets you a 90 day warranty- which knocks a couple grand off the price.

So you're going to spend 9.5K for an upgrade (19.5K total) to get a camera that's worth 12.5k. That make a lot of sense. Then you still need to pay another 9.5K to get the Dragon.

So you have a RED SCarlet for 10k. RED is asking you to pay 9.5k more (19.5K total) to get a camera worth 12.5k. To shell out another 9.5K (29K) to get a camera (Epic Dragon) worth 22.5k. Why is an upgraded Epic Dragon from Scarlet only worth 22.5K (and not 24.5K)? B/c you only get a 90 day warranty on an untested camera. People rather pay 2k more for a full year warranty. And if you buy a new Epic Dragon, on your Amex card- they'll double the warranty to 2 years.

As i said in my original post-- RED really hooked up complete strangers with a great deal, and totally screwed their camera owners here. May take a month or so to sink in-- trust me, I ran all the numbers. It's a crap deal for Epic / Scarlet owners.





Black Magic isn't the answer right now-- but in a year, it really could be.
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All of your numbers add up, only if you plan on owning the camera and NEVER working. The point of the upgrade from my position is to get into the newest technology early when it's worth a premium to have.

I opted to buy an EPIC M in the first month of release. It cost an additional $10,000 premium to have the Epic M 8 months early rather than waiting until the fall to have a standard Epic X... The question I had to pose to myself was, Is it WORTH the 10 grand premium to have the camera in my hands early? Can I make that money back BEFORE the Epic X is released. If I can make even 1 penny MORE than 10 grand in that time frame off the camera, then it was worth spending the cash on it.

Guess what? I used that camera TONS in that 8 month time frame... Also guess what, the camera was brand new in the market and commanded a premium rental price because of its scarcity. In the 2 years I have owned my Epic, sure the rental price has settled down a bit, but that gamble I took on the Epic M paid itself off...

Was I pissed when Red slashed the price of Epics nearly in half? Not in the slightest... because I have PAID for the cost of my Epic already and enjoyed having the camera at my disposal and I still own it! Everything now is pure profit... I have already pre-paid for my Dragon upgrade based on the positive income I generated by owning the camera. I still earn a wage as a DP, the camera rental is gravy... And with the upgrade, I increase the life-span of the camera platform for at least another 2 years beyond a standard MX Epic...

With camera technology flipping over at Moore's law paces, staying at the cutting edge is the ONLY place that makes sense economically. The WORST time to by an Alexa for example, is right now... that technology has matured and is due for a major revamping. Arri, unlike Red, doesn't allow nice upgrade paths. You want the latest Alexa? Buy a new 100K camera setup...

Your math sucks, or no one wants to hire you. Redo your math! Rethink the paradigm.
 
steve duncan said:
Listen, nobody likes seeing their investment drop 30% in a day, whether you want to sell or not. And we, the current RED owners, shouldn't be getting a worse deal than someone off the street. You rave about a sensor as a good value for 9.5K-- you haven't even seen any moving images from said sensor. How can I find good use for a sensor that hasn't even produced a moving image yet? I think the upgrade is severely overpriced considering what they're selling the new cameras for with the included upgrades. That's just my opinion. Whether you made millions off of using RED like Peter Jackson did, or you made nothing is not really relevant.

I think it's arrogant that RED thinks their user base is so loyal that they can give better pricing to complete strangers. RED had told all their Scarlet owners, that they're buying into an upgradeable camera. But they're current pricing is showing that that is not the case at all. A road to upgrade to RED Epic Dragon is 19k with 90 day warranty. A brand new Epic Dragon (where you can keep your original Scarlet) is 24k and comes with a 2 yr warranty if you put it on your Amex card.

There's a price where an upgrade really isn't an upgrade-- it's gouging you to the extent that you may as well just buy a brand new camera. My point is simple-- it's not worth upgrading your Scarlet. And Epic owners that paid 19k recently for their cameras-- shouldn't have an upgrade path that is 5K more that what a complete stranger would pay for the camera now. Now you owned your RED since the beginning-- so you're not as affected as some of us others. I don't pretend to know your situation, so don't pretend to know mine.

sd
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Your math is wrong you keep using the original price of the scarlet, why? The scarlet is now worth 5000 or less so 5000 + 9500 + 9500 is 24000 the same price as new dragon x. If you use your old used car as a trade in, does the dealership give you full value of the car the same as it costs brand new? That is retarded and your logic is laughable
 
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