NAB new announcements...

[Emanuel A.]

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if your talking VDSLR.. your comparing the wrong cameras.

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you choose a C300 over a RED for a one man band? Red is harder to use? really? why? because you have no focus puller? The C300 quite ironically does not have autofocus for canon lenses where the Epic and Scarlet do.

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Excellent points apart whatever else. Sticky it! (E

 

[Paul Ellington]

That's my point - I agree Mike. We work with what we need now, not 15 years from now. Yes, I LOVE the idea of upgrading elements of the camera (RED) instead of buying a new one every 3-4 years but the reality is that in my work (mostly broadcast documentaries and regional commercials) the following plays:

1. nobody pays for Red quality, acquisition, and post
2. I need simple and quick turn-around workflow
3. my camera will pay for itself in way less than three years
4. Red cameras are not an easy "one-man-band" configuration - not impossible but not easy

All I am saying here is yes, I like Red philosophy but given my specific reality, my choice right now is C300 and I am happy about it. And no, C500 is not a problem or bother for me, as I don't need 4:4:4 or 12 bit for 99% of my work. If this changes further down the road, I might revisit Epic and keep the C300 as a second camera or corporate/low end assignment camera.

# 1 I am bias because I was dating this girl from Kelowna, and I am only half black (half Scandinavian) an yet the people of this community looked at me like I should be wearing a loin cloth and a spear.


Everybody pays for RED quality and wants to aquire in RED, it's bee the transcoding which has been a pain and the ROcket solved that and I am sure Jim and Jarred have more stuff to show us tomorrow.

#2 Simple turnaround workflow... Get a DVX 100 B and shoot some docs...

#3 My camera isn't just a cash cow, I make art on it, money would be nice but just enough to pay the bills. If that's all you're in it for switch jobs...

#4 I pulled own focus and set up light, helped actors get to their marks and made a great film with a Director more focused on performances... Give it another shot but be patient this time.

 

[Mike P.]

It's not so clear with the $15,000 and under price-range -- Scarlet, 1D-C, FS700, C300 -- and that's what I'm certainly interested in (and what I generally compare to/against), so bare that in mind as you read. For example:

1. Really? nobody? RED is cheaper compared to it's true competitors. if your talking VDSLR.. your comparing the wrong cameras.

He could mean the people he sells to (broadcasters), not the people in the market for a new camera. In which case, he's right; no broadcaster pays more for 4k/5k over 1080p (currently)... and 4k broadcast is not 12months away, but more like 5-10years (assuming it takes as long as HD did... Actually no one even broadcasts in 1080p yet... only 1080i.) Not sure how important re-releases 5-10 years down the line is on stuff like that either.

2. I assume you are talking about Pro-Res? Have you tried to work with 4K prores? it will make you pray for R3D. Unless you are talking about 1080p.. but those days are coming to an end my friend. To bridge that gap.. buy one of the little pro-res or DNXhd 1080p recorders and snap it on to the back of your camera and record both 5k RAW and 1080p RGB

Again, here I think he means going from camera-to-deliverable. REDrocket helps a lot (gotta pay to play though), but the fact of the matter is you will have to render from .r3d to deliverable, which takes more time with .r3d than most other formats. This is obviously improving, but you're flat-out lying if you think it's as fast/inexpensive as baked-in formats... If you don't already have the equipment (REDrocket, adobe, etc.) you'll be paying a premium for something that most buyers/broadcasters won't be paying extra for (currently).

3. Good for you.. but after 3 years would you rather buy a whole new camera or just upgrade the bits so everything else you already bought works? Unless you have a money tree in your backyard and it doesn't matter.

Depends on how much the sensor upgrades cost. I know people are assuming just upgrading the sensor is going to be waaaay cheaper, but the price difference may actually be negligible with the resale value of the "old" camera. Naturally with Epic/C500-range ($35Gs) this isn't really a factor, but with Scarlet/1D-C/FS700-range it is. So, yeah, depends on the pricing (which I'm hoping you guys will reveal in a couple of days.)

4. you choose a C300 over a RED for a one man band? Red is harder to use? really? why? because you have no focus puller? The C300 quite ironically does not have autofocus for canon lenses where the Epic and Scarlet do. C300 you better get your white balance and exposure dead nuts on because you don't have alot of room to push that baked in file around.

I wouldn't assume he's incompetent (not being able to set WB and/or expose or that focus pulling is overly difficult for him.) The thing about baked-in is that what you see is what you get. If it looks wrong on location, your settings are wrong (e.g. you have to measure twice, cut once.) Assuming you're setting both cameras properly on the shoot, it is definitely easier when you don't have much time/money (or with baked-in cams, the capability... HA!) to set the WB/Exp/adjustments in post (as you do with RED). Sure you could get an external recorder, but it costs more, requires more batteries, and adds an extra layer of red-tape, slowing you down further during the shoot (although making post as fast as baked-in cams.)

Lots of ifs, ands, or buts in this post, but I'm merely offering an alternative point of view... I wonder how many REDusers will read this post as if I'm attacking RED or their philosophies (I assure you, I'm not)... but I guess that's the problem with die-hard fans... And no, I'm not sticking up for Canon either (I've always thought the C300 was way too expensive for what you get), I'm just saying that there are plenty of scenarios where 4k/5k or RAW isn't the best option, and it is objectively slower to work with (that's the price you pay for higher quality). With advertising work, eng style work, or event videography (all of which pays well and looks better with s35+ sensors) having to deal with the extra time/complexity of RAW 4k/5k probably isn't worth it. Now if that is essentially all you're shooting, I can see why someone is digging the 4k baked-in of Canon's upcoming $15G camera.

 

[Jon MIchael Puntervold]

Judging by your arguments, what you need is a basic video-camera not a digital cinema camera...

Btw: Raw is perfect for advertising work!

 

[Nikhil Kamkolkar]

Judging by your arguments, what you need is a basic video-camera not a digital cinema camera...

Bingo! Its so boring to hear all these arguments against RAW/RED being made by people who really should just buy my HVX200 and go shoot stuff on it. Heck, I'll even charge them their asking price for it which seems to be around 6K.

I'll stick to my EPIC-X thank you very much.

 

[Matthew Scott]

For what he is saying, the c300 is a better tool. Why are we beating him down for stating that? Maybe cos we're at REDUSER.NET? I think that's it.

 

[Patrick Grossien]

Bingo. And it should be stated that not all 1080p cameras actually provide 1080p resolution. As we see the new slew of cameras coming down the pipe that shoot at 4k everybody should remember the same.

Not to mention color depth, latitude, raw, etc.... We'll see where things land, but Red's been at this for a while and have a heck of a head start. They paved the way to get to 4k.

You know what, I actually would love to know what the iphone 4S 1080 res measures

 

[Phil Holland]

Just been looking at your IMDB resume Phil, Gotta say, that's quite an impressive list.

Cheers. Busting my ass since I was a snot nosed brat

For what he is saying, the c300 is a better tool. Why are we beating him down for stating that? Maybe cos we're at REDUSER.NET? I think that's it.

That's fine and a fine opinion to have. I'll even go as far to say that the C300 is not a bad camera. However, I will say it's a horrible value at it's price point. Remember, much of that thing is old tech (XF series) minus the sensor. This is coming from a Canon shooter and prior CPS member.

I went with Red. I've never been happier and my clients seem to be happy with the images. I feel I made the right decision, but that's not necessarily the right decision for everybody.

 

[Mike P.]

Judging by your arguments, what you need is a basic video-camera not a digital cinema camera...

Btw: Raw is perfect for advertising work!

Ha. I kind of anticipated this reaction. Like I said, I'm not arguing for or against any camera or any format... Just playing devils advocate and pointing out the problem for those people that say you *need* RAW for digital cinema. That's simply not true, no matter how much you think it is (it's like saying that a movie has to be shot on film to be considered a real movie.)

It's more wants vs needs (and it seems I'm the only one that recognizes that everyone is going to be different). It's also a matter cost and maxing (or balancing) features vs. $$. Personally, I'd be satisfied with a 4k s35 24p/30p camera that gave you the option to record either RAW or 422 with ~13stops, so long as it was ~$5000-7500 ready to shoot (cheap media too) and had decent low-light performance and XLR-in. Above and beyond that there is a huge grey area (for me.) I'd love FF35... not willing to pay triple for it though. I'd love properly downscaled 2k/1080 of the entire sensor, but not willing to pay for it. Love 120+ fps, not sure I'd be willing to pay triple for it though...

I know that sounds like it's impossible to deliver at $5000-7500, but I guess I'm spoiled by what Scarlet/5Dmk3/FS100/FS700/C300 offer between $3000-15,000 price range. The hard part is that, personally, I don't care for all the bells and whistles, but I do want all the top-end digital cinema functionality (e.g. 4k and RAW at 24p are needs, high speed frame rates and HDRx are wants that I'd prefer were excluded if it could drive the price down... apparently it wouldn't.)

Also, as I said in my previous post, I think the C300 is massively overpriced for what you get, but I recognize the fact that some shooting requires the easiest operating solution (and baked-in is objectively easier.)

 

[Patrick Grossien]

@Phil Holland - Cinematographer - Los Angeles

Just been looking at your IMDB resume Phil, Gotta say, that's quite an impressive list.

If you like the resume, you just have to check out his website ! gorgeous stuff ! Really great photography. Not that I want to downplay his skills as a DIT (EDIT: actually DIS!). But go and check out his images!

Sorry for schmoozing you, Phil! (hope to have the right choice of words here?)

 

[Phil Holland]

Thanks Patrick. DIS. Digital Imaging Specialist. I actually shoot stuff However, for the last year and a half full time DP. Chasing the dream to one day shoot a unicorn of my very own.

 

[Jiri Bakala]

# 1 I am bias because I was dating this girl from Kelowna, and I am only half black (half Scandinavian) an yet the people of this community looked at me like I should be wearing a loin cloth and a spear.


Everybody pays for RED quality and wants to aquire in RED, it's bee the transcoding which has been a pain and the ROcket solved that and I am sure Jim and Jarred have more stuff to show us tomorrow.

#2 Simple turnaround workflow... Get a DVX 100 B and shoot some docs...

#3 My camera isn't just a cash cow, I make art on it, money would be nice but just enough to pay the bills. If that's all you're in it for switch jobs...

#4 I pulled own focus and set up light, helped actors get to their marks and made a great film with a Director more focused on performances... Give it another shot but be patient this time.

The community comment is completely inappropriate and doesn't belong here.
1. I meant to say "nobody in my market pays for Red..." sorry, my omission.
The rest of your comments are simplistic, rude, and unnecessary. As always, a discussion here turns onto bashing. I am out.

 

[Zeb B]

# 1 I am bias because I was dating this girl from Kelowna, and I am only half black (half Scandinavian) an yet the people of this community looked at me like I should be wearing a loin cloth and a spear.

"this community" = REDuser?

 

[Patrick Grossien]

Thanks Patrick. DIS. Digital Imaging Specialist. I actually shoot stuff However, for the last year and a half full time DP. Chasing the dream to one day shoot a unicorn of my very own.

Uhm whoops! that's actually what I tried to say. Hehe! Sorry!
I thought a lot of your early work was mainly DIT work, and since you shoot so much and beautifully, I thought that deserved a mention!

 

[Jaakko Rinne]

"this community" = REDuser?

I think he meant the community of Kelowna, BC, Canada.

 

[Phil Holland]

Uhm whoops! that's actually what I tried to say. Hehe! Sorry!
I thought a lot of your early work was mainly DIT work, and since you shoot so much and beautifully, I thought that deserved a mention!

Prior to the IMDB credits I had a bit of experience on stage performing, which led to stage lighting, then randomly spending some time with electric on sets in town, and even more randomly gripping on a couple sets too. Advantages to growing up outside of LA.

Graduated high school. Decided not to be a genetic engineer and focused on a career in cinema. I applied at a studio in 1999 and got my real start literally cutting film on a laser recorder during graveyard, which led to scanning film at 4k and eventually 6k. Learned how to program mainly in Perl in my spare time. Did some freelance photography around that time too. About a year later found myself as a digital colorist after creating a color pipeline and coding some tools at the studio. That was good times for a few years and I enjoyed the hell out of it. I enjoyed shooting more though and moved into VFX imaging and capture. Lots of footage, VFX elements, background plates, textures, reference, etc... Whatever was needed and with what ever cameras were needed to get the job done. Some DIT type work and some DI type work came with that. That helped me travel a bunch and work on a great deal of sets. Worked with, learned, and payed attention to DPs, Directors, and everybody I could study during that time. 2005-2010 was very, very busy. Focused on new cinema capture tech a lot, hence my interest in Red. Shot a couple independents in my time off. Did a bit of still photography as well. Occasional conceptual design gigs here and there. Instructed a few art workshops in that time frame. Sometime while doing that I did some strange spherical HDRI capture which led to building a rig and programming a tool that's helpful for larger VFX studios dealing with image based lighting on large scale productions. Ended up being somewhere between a DP and VFX Supervisor for a little while a bit after all that.

Decided to make the big move. These days DP/Director and all that VFX, post, and color experience has helped a lot. I didn't dare call myself a Cinematographer until stuff I shot ended up on the big screen. Had a thing about that. Still don't know if I am really one yet as that work is fairly specialized and often just a few shots, but I was told by a DP I highly respect that "you are a cinematographer, deal with it".

That's my career in a nutshell. Very strange and wonderful adventure so far. Can't imagine doing anything else. Still working towards more. Very grateful for the experience so far.

 

[Tom Lowe]

He could mean the people he sells to (broadcasters), not the people in the market for a new camera. In which case, he's right; no broadcaster pays more for 4k/5k over 1080p (currently)... and 4k broadcast is not 12months away, but more like 5-10years (assuming it takes as long as HD did... Actually no one even broadcasts in 1080p yet... only 1080i.) Not sure how important re-releases 5-10 years down the line is on stuff like that either.

LOL 10 years. :smilielol5:

Technology trends do not move in a linear fashion. Technology is exponential, which is why it took 50 years for full adoption of landline telephones and less than 10 years for cell phones.

 

[Mike P.]

LOL 10 years. :smilielol5:

Technology trends do not move in a linear fashion. Technology is exponential, which is why it took 50 years for full adoption of landline telephones and less than 10 years for cell phones.

Hey, c'mon, I said 5-10. And I was referring to the re-releases of shows... Plus, everyone that just upgraded to HDtvs and/or 3Dtvs are not going to be as likely to get 4k sets in at least 2.5years (plus they won't be on sale in real quantity until 2013 and prices won't be affordable until 2014)... so that's already half the time. Similarly, I can't imagine broadcasters (still only at 1080i) stepping up to 4k in less than 5years... At the very least, 2013 seasons are already for the most part being shot (and in 1080), so we're already into 2014 before the majority of shows start shooting 4k, much less broadcasting them... Who knows, maybe NAB will show some sweet 4k broadcast magic that we haven't seen yet, but I'm not holding my breath. 4k in theatres and even in home theatre is one thing; 4k broadcast isn't even realistically possible yet... So that leaves streaming as the only viable way to get 4k into homes (which I don't consider broadcast) and that essentially means Netflix and AppleTV... I dunno... 5-10 years seems about right. Took 10 years for HD and that's still 1080i.. ~5 years for 4k and that'll just be subscription stuff.

 

[Tom Lowe]

4k broadcast isn't even realistically possible yet... So that leaves streaming as the only viable way to get 4k into homes (which I don't consider broadcast) and that essentially means Netflix and AppleTV... I dunno... 5-10 years seems about right. Took 10 years for HD and that's still 1080i.. ~5 years for 4k and that'll just be subscription stuff.

Why not? I have Verizon fiber running into my house and with a codec like REDRAY I could easily watch 4K content. Filed-based downloads will likely be a major delivery vehicle for 4K as well.

 

[Jiri Bakala]

I agree Mike, the broadcast cycle takes a while..... to change from one format to another is very costly. Shooting selected programing in 4k is one thing but changing the entire infrastructure is another.