NAB new announcements...

[Scott Crawley]

No, that's not what I really meant, but if you like to film your dogs, that's fine with me, as long as you don't want me to watch. The problem isn't all those people making money shooting shit work like music videos, commercials, specs, wedding tuff, etc... It's a living, I respect that, there aren't a lot of interesting artists on Reduser anyway. The problem is more with the fact that it pollutes the atmosphere preventing the more interesting forms of art (feature/short films, docs, experimental,...) , which are more valuable to be shot with such top gear like Red's, in my opinion. But sure, it won't fund your gear.

I'm a whore. I worked my ass off doing hundreds of shit jobs to learn what I have and to pay for my gear. But I am proud to say in the face of your offense that my hundreds of shit wedding jobs are in no way "polluting the atmosphere" because almost nobody is watching them! They each played a few times in a few living rooms. In no way did they prevent your genius from reaching your audience... And thank God for that.

Yes I did a lot of little family videos. Maybe you are right and ten years of work equal nothing but valueless shit. Tell that to my client who commissioned mini bios of her mother and aunt from me six or eight years ago. Those women were not notable to society at large. They had no fame. The programs I made were only of limited value to the woman who paid for them... Until this morning, when the second of those ladies passed away. Both of them are gone in the span of a month. Ask my client, or anyone in her extended family the value of those little bios now. You may have your eyes opened for you.

I'm a whore... A sweaty assed, Scarlet owning whore... And proud of it.

 

[jason dewey]

Fk Fk Fk i cant stand it any more my new dam toaster only cooks the one side if the breads to thick because it thinks its a crumpet...what the hells going on in this world

I had to laugh really hard at that one, this thread needed a way-out-in-left-field post. I just read the last two pages of this derailment and was about to add my own response to the Kristin post-a-thon, but everyone else has said everything that needs to be said. In honor of Kristin, I'm going to shoot my kids playing in the back yard tomorrow

Can't wait for NAB, my first time!

 

[Phil Holland]

4K (5K) can deliver 1080P. But 1080P cannot deliver 4K.

Bingo. And it should be stated that not all 1080p cameras actually provide 1080p resolution. As we see the new slew of cameras coming down the pipe that shoot at 4k everybody should remember the same.

Not to mention color depth, latitude, raw, etc.... We'll see where things land, but Red's been at this for a while and have a heck of a head start. They paved the way to get to 4k.

 

[J.K.Dibbets]

Jim I still wonder when will come the time to start pushing for highframerate display of 4K material? In my eyes it is still the most valid point if we talk sharpness. Great that all motionless scenes have this detail...cant thank you anough for that!! But moving objects will only get sharper when we get rid of motionblur (which we need for 24p display). 24fps display JUST ISN'T ANOUGH for human eyes there's no doubt about it. That's why we have to use motionblur to hide this lack of speed. Throwing away tons of detail every action shot. I know it will take probably half a century to make people concider that. But the fact is. If we want to be rebels of the market we just cant deny this fact. At least 120fps display with at least 180degrees of shutter would totally justify any higher resulotion you develope from this point on cause we will actually be able to see it. Ofcourse anyone from lighting dep to vfx dep will go nuts. But it will be worth it. Also as native iso increases and data management gets easier these problems will disapeare again.

 

[Demetri Zuev]

Now that Canon has again proven that they live in their own world of dreams completely separated from reality (IMO), I'm even more eager to hear some real kick-ass announcements from RED.

Monday can't come soon enough.

 

[Michael Brennan]

I wonder how many features shot on 720P or 1080P will be kicking themselves when they realize there will be no 4K re-release? When Blu-ray players are the way of 8 track. WB is rescanning their archive of great films in 4K (shot on film). How do you do that with 1080P?

99% of producers get paid for utilising the budget to make the show look good NOW. In low budget cinema and all TV, the producer is not around to get the benefits of rerelease in 15 years time in a new format.



Mike Brennan

 

[Jannard]

OK... but the "new format" is this year. Not 15 years from now.

Jim

99% of producers get paid for utilising the budget to make the show look good NOW. In low budget cinema and all TV, the producer is not around to get the benefits of rerelease in 15 years time in a new format.



Mike Brennan

 

[Jon Thomasberg]

4 years ago Red releases RedOne 4k RAW for $17.5k base
4/11 Epic 5k hits the street
11/11 Scarlet revealed, not 3k for $3k, but 4k for $10k base (usable config ~$14k)

11/11 Canon announces C300 1080 $16k
4/12 Canon announces C500 4k for Q4 2012 shipping (w/Ext recorder option; 1080 on CF) for $30k

Hmmm, glad that Canon has upped their game. In that sense, everyone wins (except for those that just bought a C300), but also glad I placed my bets on Red. I would be REALLY upset if my new C300 was already deemed old-tech by the same co. 5 mos later.

 

[Rob Ruffo]

I'm a whore. I worked my ass off doing hundreds of shit jobs to learn what I have and to pay for my gear. But I am proud to say in the face of your offense that my hundreds of shit wedding jobs are in no way "polluting the atmosphere" because almost nobody is watching them! They each played a few times in a few living rooms. In no way did they prevent your genius from reaching your audience... And thank God for that.

Yes I did a lot of little family videos. Maybe you are right and ten years of work equal nothing but valueless shit. Tell that to my client who commissioned mini bios of her mother and aunt from me six or eight years ago. Those women were not notable to society at large. They had no fame. The programs I made were only of limited value to the woman who paid for them... Until this morning, when the second of those ladies passed away. Both of them are gone in the span of a month. Ask my client, or anyone in her extended family the value of those little bios now. You may have your eyes opened for you.

I'm a whore... A sweaty assed, Scarlet owning whore... And proud of it.

Hey Scott. I like you. I like your attitude.

 

[Rob Ruffo]

OK... but the "new format" is this year. Not 15 years from now.

Jim

Yes, and the latitude for reframing in 4K, and re-grading from Raw is quite obvious even when mastering in 1080p now. So are the aesthetic benefits of oversampling - what Graemme rightfully calls "chocolatyness" which is a part of why Red looks so much like film- no yummy chocolate in pixel-for-pixel 1080p acquisition.

 

[NEIL ANDREW BATES]

I had to laugh really hard at that one, this thread needed a way-out-in-left-field post. I just read the last two pages of this derailment and was about to add my own response to the Kristin post-a-thon, but everyone else has said everything that needs to be said. In honor of Kristin, I'm going to shoot my kids playing in the back yard tomorrow

Can't wait for NAB, my first time!

Can't wait to see the REDTOAST being unveiled at NAB

 

[Rogelio Salinas]

Kristin,

I'm not sure what you want but 4K at $300 is just not possible. If you feel betrayed... your expectations were not realistic.

This is hard stuff as evidenced by the others inability to do it either. 5 years ago you could buy a Sony F35 with recorder for $350K. It is a 1080P camera.

As everything goes up in price (cost of living, gas, food, raw materials, ect.), technology seems to drop in price while improving performance. Last night I was holding a $10 2GB microSD card that holds more media than the 512MB hard drive my mid-90's $3000 Packard Bell CPU held. You can get a great HDTV for a fraction of the price now that you would on an SDTV not too long ago. As an indie filmmaker, RED made the dream affordable. To be able to shoot cinema quality images on a camera that was a fraction of the costs of what major studios were using. No one can touch RED when you compare price to image quality. If you want to spend a few hundred bucks, don't expect amazing picture quality. You get what you pay for. With RED, you get a whole lot more that what you pay for.

 

[Jiri Bakala]

That's my point - I agree Mike. We work with what we need now, not 15 years from now. Yes, I LOVE the idea of upgrading elements of the camera (RED) instead of buying a new one every 3-4 years but the reality is that in my work (mostly broadcast documentaries and regional commercials) the following plays:

1. nobody pays for Red quality, acquisition, and post
2. I need simple and quick turn-around workflow
3. my camera will pay for itself in way less than three years
4. Red cameras are not an easy "one-man-band" configuration - not impossible but not easy

All I am saying here is yes, I like Red philosophy but given my specific reality, my choice right now is C300 and I am happy about it. And no, C500 is not a problem or bother for me, as I don't need 4:4:4 or 12 bit for 99% of my work. If this changes further down the road, I might revisit Epic and keep the C300 as a second camera or corporate/low end assignment camera.

 

[Jarred Land]

That's my point - I agree Mike. We work with what we need now, not 15 years from now. Yes, I LOVE the idea of upgrading elements of the camera (RED) instead of buying a new one every 3-4 years but the reality is that in my work (mostly broadcast documentaries and regional commercials) the following plays:

1. nobody pays for Red quality, acquisition, and post
2. I need simple and quick turn-around workflow
3. my camera will pay for itself in way less than three years
4. Red cameras are not an easy "one-man-band" configuration - not impossible but not easy

All I am saying here is yes, I like Red philosophy but given my specific reality, my choice right now is C300 and I am happy about it. And no, C500 is not a problem or bother for me, as I don't need 4:4:4 or 12 bit for 99% of my work. If this changes further down the road, I might revisit Epic and keep the C300 as a second camera or corporate/low end assignment camera.

Hey Jiri.. respectfully i need to disagree with every point you have made.

1. Really? nobody? RED is cheaper compared to it's true competitors. if your talking VDSLR.. your comparing the wrong cameras.

2. I assume you are talking about Pro-Res? Have you tried to work with 4K prores? it will make you pray for R3D. Unless you are talking about 1080p.. but those days are coming to an end my friend. To bridge that gap.. buy one of the little pro-res or DNXhd 1080p recorders and snap it on to the back of your camera and record both 5k RAW and 1080p RGB

3. Good for you.. but after 3 years would you rather buy a whole new camera or just upgrade the bits so everything else you already bought works? Unless you have a money tree in your backyard and it doesn't matter.

4. you choose a C300 over a RED for a one man band? Red is harder to use? really? why? because you have no focus puller? The C300 quite ironically does not have autofocus for canon lenses where the Epic and Scarlet do. C300 you better get your white balance and exposure dead nuts on because you don't have alot of room to push that baked in file around.

 

[Justin Kirchhoff]

Hey Jiri.. respectfully i need to disagree with every point you have made.

1. Really? nobody? RED is cheaper compared to it's true competitors. if your talking VDSLR.. your comparing the wrong cameras.

2. I assume you are talking about Pro-Res? Have you tried to work with 4K prores? it will make you pray for R3D. Unless you are talking about 1080p.. but those days are coming to an end my friend. To bridge that gap.. buy one of the little pro-res or DNXhd 1080p recorders and snap it on to the back of your camera and record both 5k RAW and 1080p RGB

3. Good for you.. but after 3 years would you rather buy a whole new camera or just upgrade the bits so everything else you already bought works? Unless you have a money tree in your backyard and it doesn't matter.

4. you choose a C300 over a RED for a one man band? Red is harder to use? really? why? because you have no focus puller? The C300 quite ironically does not have autofocus for canon lenses where the Epic and Scarlet do. C300 you better get your white balance and exposure dead nuts on because you don't have alot of room to push that baked in file around.

+ 1

 

[Carter Cammack]

My guess is that if he had cans of painfully expensive S-16 footage he could no longer use, and thousands spent in generations of obsolete gear, he might think differently. Just a guess.

 

[Phil Holland]

1. nobody pays for Red quality, acquisition, and post
2. I need simple and quick turn-around workflow
3. my camera will pay for itself in way less than three years
4. Red cameras are not an easy "one-man-band" configuration - not impossible but not easy

To back Jarred here from an "end user" perspective.

1. People primarily hire me because "I'm good and familiar with Red tech".
2. Adobe Production Premium + Native R3D support. Extremely powerful and fast. If you need even quicker turnaround time Red Rocket.
3. My Scarlet X paid for itself in less than 40 days of work. That's including the extras I purchased for my base kit.
4. I get hired as a one man army very, very often. Last two commercials DP and operator. No problemo. Just needed time for pre-light.

To sum that up. I turnaround footage sometimes the same day. If your clients aren't paying you enough to afford Red quality and post expenses, that's likely not Red's problem. That's their problem and they aren't looking for that quality level. However, there are many out there who desire that level of imagery. I don't even rent my camera on it's own like other owners and found a way to pay it off.

And honestly, Red Epic/Scarlet/One allow you to create cinema quality imagery on your own. The Epic and Scarlet in particular are pretty much catering to that with the DSMC/modular design logic.

 

[Tom Lowe]

Hey Jiri.. respectfully i need to disagree with every point you have made.

1. Really? nobody? RED is cheaper compared to it's true competitors. if your talking VDSLR.. your comparing the wrong cameras.

2. I assume you are talking about Pro-Res? Have you tried to work with 4K prores? it will make you pray for R3D. Unless you are talking about 1080p.. but those days are coming to an end my friend. To bridge that gap.. buy one of the little pro-res or DNXhd 1080p recorders and snap it on to the back of your camera and record both 5k RAW and 1080p RGB

3. Good for you.. but after 3 years would you rather buy a whole new camera or just upgrade the bits so everything else you already bought works? Unless you have a money tree in your backyard and it doesn't matter.

4. you choose a C300 over a RED for a one man band? Red is harder to use? really? why? because you have no focus puller? The C300 quite ironically does not have autofocus for canon lenses where the Epic and Scarlet do. C300 you better get your white balance and exposure dead nuts on because you don't have alot of room to push that baked in file around.

Boom.

 

[NEIL ANDREW BATES]

@Phil Holland - Cinematographer - Los Angeles

Just been looking at your IMDB resume Phil, Gotta say, that's quite an impressive list.

 

[Jiri Bakala]

Hey Jiri.. respectfully i need to disagree with every point you have made.

1. Really? nobody? RED is cheaper compared to it's true competitors. if your talking VDSLR.. your comparing the wrong cameras.

2. I assume you are talking about Pro-Res? Have you tried to work with 4K prores? it will make you pray for R3D. Unless you are talking about 1080p.. but those days are coming to an end my friend. To bridge that gap.. buy one of the little pro-res or DNXhd 1080p recorders and snap it on to the back of your camera and record both 5k RAW and 1080p RGB

3. Good for you.. but after 3 years would you rather buy a whole new camera or just upgrade the bits so everything else you already bought works? Unless you have a money tree in your backyard and it doesn't matter.

4. you choose a C300 over a RED for a one man band? Red is harder to use? really? why? because you have no focus puller? The C300 quite ironically does not have autofocus for canon lenses where the Epic and Scarlet do. C300 you better get your white balance and exposure dead nuts on because you don't have alot of room to push that baked in file around.

You do make a good point with the Canon autofocus. Not so much with "slapping recorders on the back of the camera" - not if I want to go light and quick. Which is what I meant with 'one-man band'. These points could be argued forever. But, respectfully, Red is not cheaper - if we consider the C300 a competitor. Not DSLRs. I am sure there will be voices that will say no to that If we do though, a comparable working configurations are around $18k for Canon and $26-28k for Scarlet. What I mean is EVF, handle, Redmote, power, and media. But this is beating a dead horse. Anyhow, I sure hope that Red will continue innovating and one day, when the real demand for 4k is present in my market, I can assure you I'll jump in too.