NAB 2014 rumors and whispers

[Peter Moretti]

On the other hand, RED was immediately perceived as an avante garde company that Giant old gaurd companies like Sony have to stoop to copy from in order to try and stay on par.

I don't think Jannard worries about any taste left in the mouths of people with no taste. He has a Dragon to his credit.

Plus I think the suit, although dropped, sent a warning to any others who might be tempted to copy RED intellectual property. RED will defend its patents.

Elsie, I respectfully disagree. Suing Sony over compressed 4K RAW is one thing. It seemed odd, overzealous, and I don't want Red to own >1080 RAW compression. But okay, chalk it up to "Jim being Jim" or whatever. (Kind of like "Manny being Manny" to use a US baseball analogy... you take the quirks b/c the player is SO BRILLIANT).

But asking for all the F65/55/5's to be destroyed is something entirely different. A lot of people in this industry have grown up using Sony gear, so the idea that Red thinks it can ask for it be destroyed really pissed a lot of people off. A lot of rental houses and production co's have serious $$ invested in that equipment.

To use another baseball analogy, this was like when Alex Rodriguez decided to sue the Players' Association. That went too far, and eventually both sides dropped their suits.

Finally, common sense told us that if Sony dug deeply enough they'd find Sony patents that Red was infringing upon, so the whole ordeal made Red seem a bit unhinged. Just telling what I heard in the conversation at the time.

I personally think that Jim catches way too much crap, but suing Sony was a bad move, IMHO.

And anyway, all of this ancient history in camera years, LOL!

 

[Cagle Johnson]

so.....how about them rumors....
lol
I'm excited to see what Sony will be pricing their new stuff at. I wish I could afford a RED, but atm it's hopes and dreams. The FS-700 (mainly for frame rates) has had my interest piqued but I don't want to pick one up knowing NAB is around the corner with a high possibility of price drops and new equipment being released.

 

[Mike Garrick]

Isn't BMC releasing a "full frame" varient of their cameras this year ?

 

[Elsie N]

Elsie, I respectfully disagree. Suing Sony over compressed 4K RAW is one thing. It seemed odd, overzealous, and I don't want Red to own >1080 RAW compression. But okay, chalk it up to "Jim being Jim" or whatever. (Kind of like "Manny being Manny" to use a US baseball analogy... you take the quirks b/c the player is SO BRILLIANT).

But asking for all the F65/55/5's to be destroyed is something entirely different. A lot of people in this industry have grown up using Sony gear, so the idea that Red thinks it can ask for it be destroyed really pissed a lot of people off. A lot of rental houses and production co's have serious $$ invested in that equipment.

To use another baseball analogy, this was like when Alex Rodriguez decided to sue the Players' Association. That went too far, and eventually both sides dropped their suits.

Finally, common sense told us that if Sony dug deeply enough they'd find Sony patents that Red was infringing upon, so the whole ordeal made Red seem a bit unhinged. Just telling what I head in the conversation at the time.

I personally think that Jim catches way too much crap, but suing Sony was a bad move, IMHO.

And anyway, all of this ancient history in camera years, LOL!

Peter, I think you may be looking at the language of the lawsuit from the viewpoint of someone who grew up using Sony gear. That is, from your personal perspective.

In this case, I am looking at the lawsuit from the perspective of a Master Adman. Take for instance your own focus on the point of asking Sony to destroy all those cameras. It created a lot of buzz but I don't think anyone ever really thought that was going to happen.

And as for the compressed 4k RAW part of the suit, Sony has been trying to insinuate they are the first 4k company. The industry has now been reminded that RED has been the leader in 4k and is the real driving force behind moving to 4k.

As for your baseball analogies (like)... Manny being Manny is certainly appropriate because I read just today that Manny doesn't see himself as retired, and wants to return to Major League Baseball. But please! do not analagate (new word?) between Alex Rodriquez and Jim Jannard. That just offends ones sensibilities.

As you are someone who has been immersed in the culture of RED for some time now, I think you are close but not quite to the point of giving yourself over to the RED side.

Sony is sunny but RED can see in the dark (side'-)

 

[Brian Merlen]

wasn't the Dalsa the real first 4k camera lol? regardless i think the sony marketing is hogwash. its like doublespeak over there, they might as well say they invented the camera, in all its various aspect ratios and encoding mediums...

 

[Cagle Johnson]

Isn't there a "RED vs xxxx" thread already?

 

[Marc Wielage]

ARRI will show off 4K camera with COMPRESSED RAW recording onboard. The next day they are sued by Red, just like Sony for F65 camera, because Red owns compressed RAW patent…

If they make it a separate box (like Codex), and it records a variant of Raw, I'm not sure if Red can sue. Even in Sony's case, my understanding is that all the lawsuits were settled. And in Red's favor, I wouldn't say that the F65 became a big success.

This site claims that 20 new 4K cameras will be introduced at NAB, but I think it's just a guess:

http://www.redsharknews.com/technology/item/976-20-new-4k-cameras-to-arrive-before-nab-2014

The problem is, if you have a $600 smartphone that "technically" shoots 4K, is it really 4K? At what point is a signal stepped on so hard with compression, it's not really 4K in terms of picture quality?

I'm curious how many serious (say, over-$20K) 4K cameras will be introduced. Note that Arri has been quiet except for the Amira, and Panavision has been dead quiet. It'd be interesting if Sony came out with an "inbetween" camera that wasn't quite as deluxe as the F55, but more elaborate than the F5 -- call it an "F45."

If I remember correctly, at the time of very limited available disc data rates and space considerations, Kodak implemented Cineon as means of lossless compression in order to express 12 bit of color depth in a 10 bit container, therefore losslessy compressing the image.
The same goes for ARRI Prores- 12 bit of Log-C Prores loosely equivalent to 14 bit of video encoded image. It's not quite the 16 bit of RAW recording, but it's close enough.

I think the fact that Red used JPEG2000 was enough to get them a patent, plus it was a combined system that incorporated camera, compression, Raw, metadata, and modified lossy JPEG2000 recording. The moment you use an external box -- particularly one made by somebody else -- I think there's no infringement.

BTW: note that Glenn Kennel, who was the chief Kodak scientist that headed up the Cineon team, is now president & CEO of Arri USA. Interesting, eh? Glenn's a very, very bright guy. His 2006 book on Color and Mastering for Digital Cinema was one of the first books about D.I.'s and D-Cinema, and he clearly has a good handle on the theory as well as the practical application of this stuff.

It'd be very interesting to see the settlement papers between Sony and Red. Sony has a ton of patents they haven't even used yet, so they're clearly a very R&D-oriented company -- despite their difficult financial situation.

 

[Jack Cooper]

Elsie, I respectfully disagree. Suing Sony over compressed 4K RAW is one thing. It seemed odd, overzealous, and I don't want Red to own >1080 RAW compression. But okay, chalk it up to "Jim being Jim" or whatever. (Kind of like "Manny being Manny" to use a US baseball analogy... you take the quirks b/c the player is SO BRILLIANT).

But asking for all the F65/55/5's to be destroyed is something entirely different. A lot of people in this industry have grown up using Sony gear, so the idea that Red thinks it can ask for it be destroyed really pissed a lot of people off. A lot of rental houses and production co's have serious $$ invested in that equipment.

To use another baseball analogy, this was like when Alex Rodriguez decided to sue the Players' Association. That went too far, and eventually both sides dropped their suits.

Finally, common sense told us that if Sony dug deeply enough they'd find Sony patents that Red was infringing upon, so the whole ordeal made Red seem a bit unhinged. Just telling what I heard in the conversation at the time.

I personally think that Jim catches way too much crap, but suing Sony was a bad move, IMHO.

And anyway, all of this ancient history in camera years, LOL!

The suit was quietly dismissed by both parties this past summer...

http://ipinsiders.com/profiles/blogs/sony-red-end-patent-dispute#.Uxqv_4XNg_c

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Red_Digital_Cinema_Camera_Company#Lawsuits

 

[Peter Moretti]

Hence my A-Rod analogy that Elsie didn't like. :nono:

 

[Adam Johnson]

Yup I agree, just figured I'd share a fun geeky tidbit I received

 

[Marc Wielage]

Not saying it isn't happening but Panavision announced this back in 2012 and never came to fruition. They announced the prototype would be available in 6 months. 2 years later and no prototype that I know of.

And Panavision is not exhibiting at NAB as far as I can see:

http://nab14.mapyourshow.com/5_0/exhibitor_results.cfm?type=term&term=panavision&searchin=exh

 

[Mike 'Fireman' Ross]

If you don't fight for every patent violation - you could forfeit your future chance of enforcing it.

AJ

That's definitely true of trademarks. Sue or lose it.

I'm reasonably certain it's not true of patents. Reason I believe this is my background in computing. IBM own a vast number of computer-related patents. A good few years ago, they made a policy decision to 'play nice' with the open source world; the Linux guys etc. - they wanted to encourage them. They announced that, as a matter of policy, they would never seek to enforce any of their patents against open-source software. They obviously couldn't do that if it meant they couldn't still enforce them against anyone else.

As for the business of destroying cameras, that's well out of order. When this story was first discussed here, I asked if RDC would give an undertaking they would only go after Sony, and not pursue camera owners or operators, patent troll style, for alleged infringement. There was no response...

Mike

 

[Meryem Ersoz]

It only took about 17 posts before this thread went off the rails completely....

what I would like to see is a 4K tablet. Panasonic had a very nice Windows based working prototype for one last year. unfortunately, the speculative retail price was $5-$7K. let's see if they show up with any new advancements in this product for 2014.

But I bet the first company to introduce one of these sells quite a ton of them.

 

[Mark L. Pederson]

Not sure if it will be announced at NAB...haven't heard that it will or anything. But I have heard from one of the best authorities in the business who has won Academy Awards and is helping Pany with the design, etc. that the Panavision 70mm Digital Cinema Camera is going to simply blow every camera out of the water and will set the standard as top theatrical acquisition.

Well .... every year I hear that Panavision's new camera (was originally 3 new cameras) is going to "blow every camera out of the water". IMO PV should focus 100% on making lenses. Leave the sensor & camera tech to RED & ARRI.

I have, on very good authority, that there is a working 65mm ARRI camera with a 6K sensor. Uncompressed 6K to external recorder from Codex. I'm sure it will cost a bit more than AMIRA

While I'm excited to see a larger sensor from RED - gotta say - Dragon sensor is off the charts amazing - and there are MANY lens options for creating 6K content on Dragon with standard PL mount for "large venue - massive screen digital projection".

 

[Cagle Johnson]

It only took about 17 posts before this thread went off the rails completely....

what I would like to see is a 4K tablet. Panasonic had a very nice Windows based working prototype for one last year. unfortunately, the speculative retail price was $5-$7K. let's see if they show up with any new advancements in this product for 2014.

But I bet the first company to introduce one of these sells quite a ton of them.

I know right? lol


I wanna go so bad! Never been and I'd love to see all the new gear getting debuted and talked about. Maybe even catch a good deal if possible.

 

[Brian Merlen]

wow, that sounds awesome!

Well .... every year I hear that Panavision's new camera (was originally 3 new cameras) is going to "blow every camera out of the water". IMO PV should focus 100% on making lenses. Leave the sensor & camera tech to RED & ARRI.

I have, on very good authority, that there is a working 65mm ARRI camera with a 6K sensor. Uncompressed 6K to external recorder from Codex. I'm sure it will cost a bit more than AMIRA

While I'm excited to see a larger sensor from RED - gotta say - Dragon sensor is off the charts amazing - and there are MANY lens options for creating 6K content on Dragon with standard PL mount for "large venue - massive screen digital projection".

 

[jake blackstone]

It only took about 17 posts before this thread went off the rails completely....

what I would like to see is a 4K tablet. Panasonic had a very nice Windows based working prototype for one last year. unfortunately, the speculative retail price was $5-$7K. let's see if they show up with any new advancements in this product for 2014.

But I bet the first company to introduce one of these sells quite a ton of them.

Obviously, I was first who had mentioned the possibility of the lawsuit. On the face of it, it seems, that my post was a bit flippant and frankly, in a way it was. What got immediately lost in the conversation is the reason I brought this subject up in the first place. So, I'd like to explain my original post. Being, that this is Reduser, it seems, that high resolution of the camera is the most important consideration. I wanted to give a bit of a wider perspective rather than concentrate on just an acquisition of a high resolution image. I believe, right now, just about every camera and sensor manufacturer has technologies with resolution of 4k and up ready to go. So, at this point, there are three existing ways of handling those images- uncompressed RAW (ARRIRAW, Cinema DNG, DPX, etc), compressed debayered (Prores, AVC, H264 etc) and compressed RAW (R3D, SONY SR). For obvious reasons the first two have certain issues, which can't be easily addressed. It seems, compressed RAW is the only way to properly handle recorded material while giving a fighting chance for post to be able to process it in a reasonable matter. And that is all I was trying to say. I think it is healthy to discuss all implications of different recording and processing technics without deteriorating it into the Red vs the world…

 

[Mark L. Pederson]

It seems, compressed RAW is the only way to properly handle recorded material while giving a fighting chance for post to be able to process it in a reasonable matter. And that is all I was trying to say. I think it is healthy to discuss all implications of different recording and processing technics without deteriorating it into the Red vs the world…

I remember VERY clearly - when people laughed at compressed RAW. Funny how things change -

 

[Tarek salman]

I just want to know how you come up this.are you really comparing red to blackmagic.

 

[Elsie N]

...

I have, on very good authority, that there is a working 65mm ARRI camera with a 6K sensor. Uncompressed 6K to external recorder from Codex. I'm sure it will cost a bit more than AMIRA

...[/B]

Since this is a rumors and whispers thread, I'm gonna guess such a camera's cost would equal the cost of about 5 Dragons... so Dragon would still win the resolution contest by extrapolation, 30k to 6k. '-)