Welcome to our community

Be a part of something great, join today!

Log in
  • Hey all, just changed over the backend after 15 years I figured time to give it a bit of an update, its probably gonna be a bit weird for most of you and i am sure there is a few bugs to work out but it should kinda work the same as before... hopefully :)

My take on the RED Dragon...

Status
Not open for further replies.
Credit to Jim and the RedTeam for realizing that without a great sensor you can't make a great DC camera.

The MX Epic is a very good camera; as many have noted, if you can't get excellent images with it you need to up your game in terms of lighting, lensing, grading, etc.

That said, I fully expect the Dragon-ized Epic to be the camera Jim envisioned initially. With all RED has learned over the last 6 years and a next generation sensor - yowza!

Cheers - #19
 
Jannard said:
LightIron and Company3 have easily matched EPIC color (including skin tones) to film and the Alexa.

Jim
Click to expand...

I guess not everyone's LightIron or Company3. IMHO, you should look into Red's own offerings of LUT's (ie. RedLogFilm/RedColor3 to Rec709) so that you can standardize the looks of Red footage. I hope you've noticed discussions on this board about this, and I think it will guide lots of people who have trouble throughout the post. Having freedom is a good thing, and I enjoy my experience working on Red footage. However, this freedom at the same time confuses people. This is a good time to do this with new color science.

Cheers,
 
Just realized I needed to post in this thread in order to keep track of it among the maze of FS items.

On another note, I'm hoping third party NLEs will report in when they become Dragon Ready. Fortunately, we are never left without a workflow solution due to the fore sight of RED to develop the workflow hand-in-hand with the hardware.

They (Jarred) just sold me a ROCKET-X today with his comments in another thread touting how well the ROCKET-X compliments 6k Dragon footage. I've never caught Jim or Jarred in an out-and-out lie yet, so I have to believe him. '-)
 
Last edited:
While I've got a couple Rocket-X cards on order, I still have to ask... Will the current Rocket also work with Dragon footage? I realize it probably can't crunch it real-time, but please tell me it will still accelerate it.
 
Blair S. Paulsen said:
Credit to Jim and the RedTeam for realizing that without a great sensor you can't make a great DC camera.

The MX Epic is a very good camera; as many have noted, if you can't get excellent images with it you need to up your game in terms of lighting, lensing, grading, etc.

That said, I fully expect the Dragon-ized Epic to be the camera Jim envisioned initially. With all RED has learned over the last 6 years and a next generation sensor - yowza!

Cheers - #19
Click to expand...


i really appreciate posts that are this articulate and summarize exactly how I feel!

david
 
Thank you Jim.

Dragon is indeed the camera I've been waiting for. Can't wait.
The 19-25 year old that's still left in me is more excited than ever. The almost 34 year old in me is extremely happy that my next big, big shoot will be on Dragon.


And for those who bring up the skin tone myth over and over again. I was a colorist for 6 years and still consult, supervise, and execute corrections and grades. If there was something weird that I couldn't do with REDCODE I wouldn't be a Red owner or shooter.

I'm all about squashing things like that. I've had producers say the same thing, then I show them some test images, and then they say wow that looks good.

To quote myself, "cameras don't kill images, people do".
 
Jannard said:
This comment sorta bugs me. It is a soundbite that has been marketed throughout the industry. LightIron and Company3 have easily matched EPIC color (including skin tones) to film and the Alexa.

While our color science has certainly improved with Dragon.. the soundbites you allude to are just flat out inaccurate.

Jim

Originally Posted by Bing Bailey
will it put the skin tone issue to bed. its all anyone seems to want to talk about
Click to expand...

I know what Bing is talking about and these comments come up every now and then. Some just say "I don't care about the number, the xxx just makes the prettier images" (...you probably know where this is coming from...)
There is a very simple answer, which is apparently not so easy to get for many DoPs and Producers:

The sensors cover a certain latitude and gamut. Essentially the gamut is sooo large now, that you should easily be able to match one against the other.

The color science coming with each camera system is calibrated toward a target. The problem is: This target is not the same for every camera vendor.
Some found that certain cameras produce a "look and feel" pretty close to specific film stocks. And I believe this is where both the "problem" and the "solution" are.
If you make a default color science to match e.g. Kodak Vision3 and Kodak Premiere filmstock combination, you get warmer, potentially prettier results than a Fuji/Agfa combination as target.
To me the RED EPIC always looked pretty neutral, so it may be technically calibrated against REALITY. However, reality isn't always as pretty as wearing e.g. orange glasses...

From a post production stand point I like the neutral image as a starting point, and so do many colorists.
Others work more in a point and shoot style workflow and can't afford or like to do a lot of color grading. For them the output with a specific e.g. warm look might be more interesting.

In fact, RED could start calibrating the sensors against many different known combinations like Fuji, Kodak, AGFA etc. in all their derivates. You simply load the right LUT and will have the EPIC match the other camera XXX on stage.

So Jim, the best way to solve this "problem" is to make the above happen and deliver various presets/looks to match other cameras default look. Then the arguments are gone.

Have a look how Adobe/Iridas did camera matching within their lumetri tools. This is the only way to match cameras. LUTs are soooo outdated. Matrix matching is the way to go...

Congratulations on the Dragon!

Best,
Axel
 
test, test, test (tip of the hat to Sean Fairburn)

test, test, test (tip of the hat to Sean Fairburn)

All along RED has chosen to put as much power and control in the hands of shooters as they could. By dint of logic, it also makes it much easier to screw up.

Should RED have offered an "auto" mode like on a consumer camcorder?

FWIW, even when working with "standard" camera packages the best shooters I know take prep very seriously. Do they spend most of their time just confirming expectations? Sure. Does that seem like a waste of time? I guess you could see it that way. I always like being so aware of what will happen if I follow the plan that if I get a creative inspiration on set I have a pretty fair idea what the result of any adjustments might be. I put a lot of value in that. YMMV.

Cheers - #19
 
Axel Mertes said:
(snip)
The color science coming with each camera system is calibrated toward a target. The problem is: This target is not the same for every camera vendor.
Some found that certain cameras produce a "look and feel" pretty close to specific film stocks. And I believe this is where both the "problem" and the "solution" are.
If you make a default color science to match e.g. Kodak Vision3 and Kodak Premiere filmstock combination, you get warmer, potentially prettier results than a Fuji/Agfa combination as target.
To me the RED EPIC always looked pretty neutral, so it may be technically calibrated against REALITY. However, reality isn't always as pretty as wearing e.g. orange glasses...
Best,
Axel
Click to expand...

Well said, 100% agree.

Moreover, I wonder how much conditioning influences aesthetic assessments?

Cheers - #19
 
I have made this argument before. We are actually seeing things they way they are as opposed to the way we want them to be. Any look is achievable with the right tools, testing and knowledge.

I choose red because as time goes on we are discovering that resolution actually does matter. Anyone who shot a project on SD when HD was around felt the sting a short time later.

Looking to the future, this will probably ring true for many HD projects as well.

in the last six years i feel that film and RED were the two best choices, but history will judge that, not me.


David
 
Blair S. Paulsen said:
Moreover, I wonder how much conditioning influences aesthetic assessments?
Click to expand...

I would say quite a bit. There also seems to be that crowd-thinking of sorts that dictates which camera looks "best".
 
Axel Mertes said:
So Jim, the best way to solve this "problem" is to make the above happen and deliver various presets/looks to match other cameras default look. Then the arguments are gone.
Axel
Click to expand...

Hello Axel,

I understand your point Axel, but the last thing I want from a camera is that it looses it's specificity.

When I use Bolex reversal, 5D, Ex-1 or Epic I want that look and not something that gets close to a Kodak stock or another camera.

Il love the look of the RED digital camera and have enough latitude to change that look to get the project needs.

Now people have to process their picture correctly. Once upon a time it was only Scratch that did the job best, now there are soooo many other ways of doing it right.



Pat
 
To me, tools like Scratch, Baselight, Resolve, etc are the modern darkroom, times 100. Happy to start with a neutral image in most cases. Sign me up.

I do see the potential value in having the ability to get that neutral image to look like a particular film stock, or genre style, with one click. Even if I just review several one click versions for reference before going back to the original image for grading, it can help me visualize where I might want to go with it - or, more importantly, where I don't want to take it.

Cheers - #19
 
Jeff Kilgroe said:
While I've got a couple Rocket-X cards on order, I still have to ask... Will the current Rocket also work with Dragon footage? I realize it probably can't crunch it real-time, but please tell me it will still accelerate it.
Click to expand...

Please answer this one. We've got a belly full of Rocket cards and I'd like to know what the best path would be as well. Thank you.

Dragon here we come...
 
You know what's really exciting? Shooting pretty images, then having to downrez them to be able to go on a 4K player that hasn't shipped widely yet. Just think about that for a second. 4K players aren't even the norm and we are shooting images that are what, 60% larger than the delivery format? Imagine the possibilities and clarity of these images we'll be shooting!

It won't be a hard sell to clients anymore...I remember when the R1 first came out, I had a terrible time convincing my clients why it was better...the best way to show them was with the images it created, not with the tech talk.

Since 2008, I've been able to build up a sustainable reel for clients to "ooooo" and "ahhhh" at...now, with Dragon, they'll open up their mouths and just be speechless.

Is anyone else preparing a show reel for our soon to be "new" cameras?

I want my REDRAY!
 
Jeff Kilgroe said:
While I've got a couple Rocket-X cards on order, I still have to ask... Will the current Rocket also work with Dragon footage? I realize it probably can't crunch it real-time, but please tell me it will still accelerate it.
Click to expand...


I just assumed my RR card would work with 6k Dragon footage just slower. I had no idea this might not be possible. A clarification from Red would be very welcome. I did not take up the offer on the RRX card based on RR and Dragon being compatible. I hope I wasn't wrong.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top