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  • Hey all, just changed over the backend after 15 years I figured time to give it a bit of an update, its probably gonna be a bit weird for most of you and i am sure there is a few bugs to work out but it should kinda work the same as before... hopefully :)

My Scarlet Dragon arrived - noisy, but otherwise great!

David Kellermann said:
Yes, but there's also space to the left. I know that I always can add more light and shoot at 250ASA. But my RED Scarlet MX didn't had those issues, and neither should have my Dragon.
Click to expand...

As it currently stands with the new olpf/calibration, anything under 35-40IRE tend to be noisy. It also seems uniform rather than the lower you go the more noise and vice versa (there doesn't seem to be a transition in amount of noise). It just all seems to have an equal amount of noise under 40IRE. That bookshelf shot had an ample amount of light so that is not the issue. Sorry but we can't shoot everything in full daylight or with 4k+ HMI's indoors.

From what I have seen is that some cameras exhibit more noise than others (could be on a different firmware build, blackshade, environment differences, quality of light, etc). I shot with a carbon Dragon the other day, pointed it at a computer monitor that's brightness was up all the way (around 55-60 IRE at 800ISO) and it was full of noise. Then I went and shot on another Dragon in low light and it was clean. Both had the new olpf. The original image is greatly underexposed, but the other two images are not so I don't get how people say it is underexposed.
 
I should add though that noise reduction works much better with Dragon due to the smaller pixels. You can get some great, clean, images when processed with a bit of NR:

2000ISO
Dragon2000ISO.jpg
 
My Scarlet Dragon has the same issue, ever with loads of light you can see noise, applying nr in post is not ideal when you hand footage over to production companies. How are you supposed to tell them, o just add hours to your post time to make up from a problem in camera. Thats not a great pitch. I am waiting for the firmware update but if it does not fix the issue I'm stumped. So far I have not been able to confidently show off the camera as I am not fully confident with it.

Cheers
Ian
 
Matt,

I doubt there are two grades of sensors. I mean, that would be a complete disaster as multi camera shoots could produce enormous problems.

I guess to to test your theory, you'd have to try to get a studio day booked and invite as many Scarlett and dragon owners in your area to bring their cameras in to do a controlled test. The parameters would be easy

1. Same firmware
2. Same temp
3. Same lens
4. Same scene

But I suspect it might be a bit complicated to set up.

Battistella
 
can you upload some files WITH loads of light of your Sensor ?
 
Jan Reiff said:
can you upload some files WITH loads of light of your Sensor ?
Click to expand...

The bookshelf R3D has lots of light, but still shows noise. Look at the white bookshelf frame... that would have been clean on the MX sensor.

The weird thing is that I got nearly the same amount of noise when shooting underexposed and when shooting a properly lit scene.
 
;-)
this was for Ian, because he says he has the same problem
 
David, can you shoot the same with another Lense ?
it looks strange, indeed, but very filmic ;-)
has the impression of a 35mm adapter.
it´s also not 100% sharp, very "milky"
 
i did some fast shots again with my dragon, same lightsituations i think as we have dark rainy day here with - you will surprised, or not. 10 Minutes to upload some stuff
 
ok, fast dirty shots here in our atelier

https://www.flickr.com/photos/123436930@N07/sets/72157645523210525/

all at f1.8., so not the hot spot of sharpness, room with windows, but dark rainy outside

there is a difference to some footage from others, think it´s significant.
don´t get it why

this is M dragon , and should be the new OLF ;-)

64 temp

no black shading for this test

there is noise, but it is fine, and it´s the red noise that stays, that will be done with the new firmware, so i will get a clean and good image at ISo 800

i have the impression, that some footage posted here has the noise at ISO 800 i have with ISO 5000

with ADD and the new firmware i am quite sure i may have ISO 5000 close to clean

what you think ?
 
Matt Ryan said:
As it currently stands......anything under 40IRE tend to be full of noise.
Click to expand...
Correct.
Matt Ryan said:
From what I have seen is that some cameras exhibit more noise than others.
Click to expand...
This could be a physical problem as well as software problem. That might explain why Jarreds time estimate for a fix has long past.
Matt Ryan said:
Those people ... should not tell those with noisy cameras that things are fine and you're just underexposing, cause I can tell you first hand there was a visual difference that was obvious even on the touch lcd.
Click to expand...
That would seem obvious. Agree




David Battistella said:
Matt,

Plus that suggests there are two levels... of customers, the ones that get noisy dragons and the ones that get clean ones. That implies some kind if conspiracy which I doubt is the case.
Click to expand...
I dont see how Matt is suggesting a conspiracy. No, not at all. He simply said there seems to be noisey and cleaner sensors in customers hands. That seems to be the case. Lets not label people who discuss this topic as conspiracy theorists.

Lots of interesting reading in this thread.
 
Jan,

When the pixels already had a decent exposure (rate at 250/320 or good fat histogram at 800) you can push all you like.

When the pixels do not get the light in the first place you push noise.

Same with film, push two stops on correct exposure, not bad

push two stops when underexposed, well you get grain.

Dragon is a lot like film.

If i load vision 3 stock and underexpose two stops and push three stops? Not the recipe for stellar images.

the response on dragon with new OLPF and highlight calibration is geared to be like motion picture film not like super sensitive video cameras.

Even with new FW the noise profile will be the same. The color of the noise will change as we can see in the 12800 ISO frames jarred posted.

Battistella
 
After seeing Jeffs test, I think Matt is right in that there can be a hardware difference in the cameras, don't know if it is the sensor or something else, perhaps just a faulty black shading issue. Since i don't like speculation, I think it does more harm than good, let's just wait until Red tells us.
 
Bohdan Klos said:
I dont see how Matt is suggesting a conspiracy. No, not at all. He simply said there seems to be noisey and cleaner sensors in customers hands. That seems to be the case. Lets not label people who discuss this topic as conspiracy theorists.
Click to expand...

First. I think Matt can speak for himself.

I suggested a way to test the theory.

There are plenty of Dragons in LA, where I think Matt is, to test that theory out.

Now Matt's a great contributor to this community and he may not have meant it that way. I suggested that red probably wants 100% consistency throughout their camera line up.

So, in short, check yourself. Matt can address me directly are trade emails if we need to clear this up.

Battistella
 
David

but when i see the bookshelf image from the Scarlet, there seems to be enough light in the room , when i compare to my footage. but the images are completely different as from two different cams ...

so some say, they don´t get clean images even with right exposure, my dragon does for example ... this is strange, simple.

the question is: is this an issue of the camera itself or black shading or smth else ... i would like, too, test one of "these" cameras and compare with my one
 
Jan Reiff said:
David

but when i see the bookshelf image from the Scarlet, there seems to be enough light in the room , when i compare to my footage. but the images are completely different as from two different cams ...

so some say, they don´t get clean images even with right exposure, my dragon does for example ... this is strange, simple.

the question is: is this an issue of the camera itself or black shading or smth else ... i would like, too, test one of "these" cameras and compare with my one
Click to expand...

The 50mm AIS lens is extremely soft at f1.4. I will do more tests tomorrow.

When switching on the camera, there is nearly no noise, but after the camera warms up, the noise appears again. It's strange since I've blackshaded the camera for the suggested target temperature.
 
I have not been able to look at the r3d but will tonight.

Battistella
 
David Kellermann said:
The 50mm AIS lens is extremely soft at f1.4. I will do more tests tomorrow.

When switching on the camera, there is nearly no noise, but after the camera warms up, the noise appears again. It's strange since I've blackshaded the camera for the suggested target temperature.
Click to expand...

Could you try taking the cam out of adaptive and BS at 40 or 45 degrees and see if running it 20degrees cooler changes things. That might eliminate temperature as a cause.
 
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