My RED ONE (arrival date tomorrow) has just been Rendered OBSOLETE

[Nick Ambrose]

So instead of getting an Epic, you get your sensor upgrade. I mean, it would be so nice to run a Santa Claus business, giving away presents each year to the good kids, but we all know that's not realistic. Instead, you get to upgrade as best as we can, or trade in as best as we can. Can't say fairer than that.

What about my Canon DSLR - do I get an upgrade sensor? Nope. Do I get money off the next camera or a trade in? Nope. How much money do I have invested in the Canon gear - a more than $17.5k. That's the reality for the rest of the industry.

Graeme

I think the trade-in program is truly unbelievable.

I cannot name another company that does anything close. More usually, they are all just deliberately crippling and reducing functionality precisely to make people "upgrade" and pay more.

I dont get all the complaints honestly.

 

[Anders Holck]

It's going to be interesting for me, the choice between 5K S35 sensors versus 6K FF35 sensors... is the quality jump from 5K to 6K worth the change from cine optics to still camera optics, plus the difference of two-stops worth of practical depth of field?

Whats interesting is also to test if any PL mount lenses actually cover the full 36x24 aperture...

 

[Jason Ing]

Maybe obsolete is too harsh a word.

Maybe part of his point is that an upgrade is nice, but $11-17k+ more expensive.

The Scarlet S35/FF35 that costs a substantial 5-10k less is equivalent or better then the Red One. So is there a possibility to downgrade?

I'm not complaining, though. I'll probably upgrade to the Epic if I can raise the money. Maybe I can get a very, very small part of that $700 billion government loan?

 

[Jason Ing]

Although, another way to put obsolete is...

Will Red be selling the Red One or will it be continued when Scarlet and Epic are in rolled out?

 

[Andrae Palmer]

I can't wait to see the prices of these new accessories... so far its looking like a 20k trade-in to the most affordable epic.

Although, another way to put obsolete is...

Will Red be selling Red Ones or will it be continued when Scarlet and Epics are in rolled out?

Good way to put it Jason. :whistling:

 

[Jason Ing]

Is this becoming obsolete.... the Birger mount?

 

[Paul Hazlett]

Sony Betacams were being used, long after Digital Betacam and DV came along. Because the picture quality was fine for the market it was being used in, for two decades.

SHHHHHHHHHH dont let the networks here you!!! Betacam SP is not dead I am still using my beta packages on a weekly basis. no longer daily but they are still making money. Like you said and what many have said all along, if your client is happy with the product run with it. Red One will be around and beautifull for a long time.

 

[A. Bastaki]

dude.. i opened a thread similar to yours so did 2 or 3 others who opened threads and hinted to what you are saying. I feel you buddy, and you made a very valid point.

Though I gotta say, I laughed at the southpark reference to their reference of indiana jones. lol. But .. I dont feel like i was done southpark style though... lol. I think it is great they made the new reds cheaper and more reachable .. a redone has become the same price of a sony ex3. I guess not many will buy those little crappy cameras anymore.

The indi filmmaker will get a better chance to prove himself... which is a great opportunity. It will be about content in two years time.. which is healthy.

The exchange program slightly complicates things though.

It is like you bought a nokia phone for $500 and sold it for $50. It's normal in the tech world. But for a 17,500 camera to be worth 3-4000 in a year's time... is not exactly normal.

True, sony, pany.. etc.. Dont have trade-ins... BUT ATLEAST... you can sell them for a couple of hundred dollars less after using them for a year. A fifth is cut off.. a quarter of the price goes away.. YES... not 3/4 of the price.

When you buy a leica camera.. its price stays.. the pice of the lenses.. stay.. the price of Arri cameras.. stay. Even Canon DSLR's their prices stay... a third at most is cut off of it's re-sale value in a year's time.

What I don't understand is.. why Red chooses to do a trade-in for an epic... they lose 17,500.. and won't trade-in a 12,000 dollar scarlet for say a few more thousands? Cause guys who go scarlet really can't make it for an epic yet... obviously.. not everyone is destined to make their money back in a year. (not speaking about myself)

Why the strange catch?

 

[M Most]

Maybe obsolete is too harsh a word.

Maybe. But here's a simple fact about modern, computer based techology. Everything based on it has a relatively short shelf life (compared to mechanically based technology), and is replaced by something that's considerably better and, more often than not, costs less. That's happened with processors, memory, storage, and, frankly, everything ever built by Apple. Regardless of the marketing phrases, it is virtually impossible to "render obsolescence obsolete," simply because it's a constantly moving target. The best you can do is probably what Red is doing, which is offering multiple upgrade paths to ease the pain, and trying to jump the technology more than the one generation that would usually be expected, thus lengthening the shelf life a bit.

 

[Andrae Palmer]

What I don't understand is.. why Red chooses to do a trade-in for an epic... they lose 17,500.. and won't trade-in a 12,000 dollar scarlet for say a few more thousands? Cause guys who go scarlet really can't make it for an epic yet... obviously.. not everyone is destined to make their money back in a year. (not speaking about myself)

Why the strange catch?

Great point.. I have friends that would LOVE a trade-in to Scarlet from the RED One. They are stuck in a hard situation and cannot raise the funds to trade-in to an Epic.

 

[Jason Ing]

Why the strange catch?

I don't think it's a catch. You buy Scarlet for Scarlet. Red One has a "grandfather clause" in it to protect customers.

I think people might find it "strange", though, because we're not used to "honor" and "generosity".

 

[M Most]

It will be about content in two years time..

It's about content now. It's always been about content. It's never been about camera technology, as much as some would like to think that it has.

 

[Jason Ing]

Great point.. I have friends that would LOVE a trade-in to Scarlet from the RED One. They are stuck in a hard situation and cannot raise the funds to trade-in to an Epic.

Maybe because Red won't be making Red Ones, so there is nothing to trade up to other then the Epic?

 

[Jason Ing]

Maybe. But here's a simple fact about modern, computer based techology. Everything based on it has a relatively short shelf life (compared to mechanically based technology), and is replaced by something that's considerably better and, more often than not, costs less. That's happened with processors, memory, storage, and, frankly, everything ever built by Apple. Regardless of the marketing phrases, it is virtually impossible to "render obsolescence obsolete," simply because it's a constantly moving target. The best you can do is probably what Red is doing, which is offering multiple upgrade paths to ease the pain, and trying to jump the technology more than the one generation that would usually be expected, thus lengthening the shelf life a bit.

Yeah, maybe people are taking the statement too literally and black and white. I think it's also meant to capture the spirit or philosophy that the company isn't trying to screw you over and gouge your eyes out knowing very well that they are holding back technology, milking you, and already producing the next "upgrade" for another hit up your backside.

But Scarlet S35 and FF35 which interchangeable mounts sort of put an interesting twist to things. I'm still trying to digest that one.

 

[A. Bastaki]

It's about content now. It's always been about content. It's never been about camera technology, as much as some would like to think that it has.

It has always been about content, content is king, but really, the quality of the image plays a big role too.

 

[Clint Johnson]

It seems that some people understood "rendering obsolescence obsolete" to mean that either; a) the Red One would be so advanced that no better camera would ever be created or b) Red Digital Cinema would supply perpetual upgrades for whatever price you could afford... for free if that was all you could afford.

Both of those interpretations are unrealistic in the extreme. I figured that Red would supply internal upgrades for as long as it was technologically feasible and then they next upgrade would be to an entirely new system. I didn't imagine that the upgrade to a new system would be as generous as a full value trade in... that is just crazy generous.

But that full value trade in is only feasible when moving to a more expensive system. Red Digital Cinema has to make money on the transactions or it goes out of business. The 12% discount (Jim's wording was ambiguous but I'm thinking that is 12% off the price of the Scarlet, not 12% of the Red One purchase price?) toward the considerably less expensive Scarlet, just because we bought a Red One, is also something I didn't expect. The Scarlet FF35 is a very sweet looking "brain" and $1,440 credit while keeping Red #351 is tempting... but is it tempting enough to pull me away from using #351 against an Epic?

Or will the Depression that we are heading into mean that I'll have to sell the camera off to someone who wants to trade it in on an Epic? That would be a sad end to my adventures with Red and I would really miss the roller coaster ride.

 

[XiaoSu Han]

I think a bit of a problem is that "the mass" has bought the RED ONE camera, it was possible for "the poor filmmaker" to grease up some money and buy a 4K camera.

If you are a big rental house and just invested millions in a fleet of F900's and then after two years, there's an upgrade, that wouldn't be the reaction.

It's bad if a private person shed's out 20k USD from everything he/she has and the next moment something better, but cheaper, get's announced, I understand why he or she might be pissed.

Perhaps RED needs to look into a "downgrade" programme to Scarlet as well, like having a choice to for example either:

a) Buy an additional Scarlet and get 12% off
b) Trade the RED ONE in for 12000 USD (Scarlet FF35 Brain) or 7K S35 Brain and 5k of accessoires.

The only problem with b is: what is RED going to do with all those R1's returned?

Option b would make purchasing a R1 easier I guess at the moment.

 

[Andrae Palmer]

RED has done more than what most companies have for an upgrade path. I agree that many R1 owners can't afford the trade-in path to an Epic but heck life is rough and not everyone can be on top of the bone pile. A touch of elitism has been introduced into RED... the socialist will cry in great pain now... but hey it was never about the camera.. that was a false myth. Making movies is an high finance game and will always be. I know many rental companies will be happy for this change.

 

[Kholi Hicks]

It has always been about content, content is king, but really, the quality of the image plays a big role too.

Dunno why people insist on spitting out that tired tripe. "Content is King". Yeah, we know, that's why you're on RED boards and not on VHSuser.com.

I'm with you, Akube. The image matters, as it is MOVING PICTURES.

 

[Kholi Hicks]

RED has done more than what most companies have for an upgrade path. I agree that many R1 owners can't afford the trade-in path to an Epic but heck life is rough and not everyone can be on top of the bone pile. A touch of elitism has been introduced into RED... the socialist will cry in great pain now... but hey it was never about the camera.. that was a false myth. Making movies is an high finance game and will always be. I know many rental companies will be happy for this change.

I like this guy. Well, as long as you're not getting an FF35 Scarlet, then I'll be jealous. =T