my post/thread has been deleted ...

[Denis Buhot]

My recent, long, post in red discussion ("Dragon, Red at a crossroads... ") has been deleted, after 15 minutes of existence, and the thread itself as well. No explanation. I wrote nothing but my opinion, in well balanced words, questioning Dragon and the near future as an early red one user, now epic MX owner fully acknowledging to be a very happy customer so far. If that opinion was simply stupid and pointless why delete ? Stupid opinions are self-destroying. Why be afraid that other might read it ? I had thought that this board was a space of free discussion, and that constructive criticizing was allowed, provided there was no libel nor malevolent intentions. If others answered in an unsuitable manner, and tried to take advantage from that thread to attain different goals, why not simply delete the posts in question ?

That kind of behavior is a surprisingly bad thing and a very wrong message. Do not bother banning me. I shall not waste my time posting any longer.

 

[Lauri Kettunen]

Hi Denis,

Knowing what you aim at it and what kind of camera you need, it is clear why you've struggled with a making a decision whether to go to Dragon upgrade or not. All wildlife shooters tend to be after sensitivity without flares.

In general, I think when Red One was launched the situation was quite different than nowadays. At the time camera manufactures had not fully exploited the existing technology but rather have became bit lazy and satisfied with the micro steps. This created an increasing gap between the technological possibilities and the cameras, and the competition was not tough enough to make a change. Jim Jannard had recognised this technological gap and had the resources to set up RED to challenge the still waters. As a result Red One was a true leap forward and a big change.

Epic was also a change for better as Red One was based on a so called FPGA (Field programmable gate array). Epic has so called ASICs (Application Specific Integrated Circuit). The difference is, an FPGA is a "device" that can be programmed for many kind of uses, whereas an ASIC is application/device dedicated. Moreover, ASICs result in smaller volumes and less need of power (per "output"). Hence, another big step forward between Red One and Epic.

When it came to Dragon the ballpark changed. The obvious steps –start with FPGA, then get to ASICs– were already exploited and the Dragon is also the 3rd generation sensor of RED after M and MX. Hence, making big steps without sky-high costs have become more challenging.

On this forum some people who've been around ever since the early days of Red One have posted that the reactions on Dragon suggests the expectations got too high; after many positive surprises almost everybody expected another giant step, and perhaps the development team were also bit over optimistic as well. (BTW, this attitude is a necessity in all ambitious work to make progress, and it's universal that when previous steps have gone well, the risk of over optimism tends to grow.) At least I did not personally manage to get a fully realistic view on Dragon just by reading RedUserNet. Only when got the camera in my hands managed to create an idea of its properties. Like you, feel the sensitivity is not what I hoped for, but believe the changeable OLPF will be useful. Of course, it remains to see to which extent the flare becomes an issue with the low light OPLF.

The big improvement from Epic MX to Dragon is in the colours. For instance, in midsummer time with Epic MX did not manage to get the tones green forest and blue lakes as I see them with a naked idea. Always felt there was a colour cast on the images which seem to be very difficult to remove. After reading Jarred's recent post explaining the standard OPLF of Dragon cuts down the "bad spectrum" of light (I guess he means the frequencies beyond visible light) realised that this explains the colour tones of MX sensor and why they were so difficult to remove (?).

As you say, nothing will ever be a perfect camera and RED also says, they will not be able to create a perfect camera. However, the RED cameras are simply pretty amazing "per buck". They are far beyond what anybody expected when Jim started to talk of Red One. At this point also all the past experience suggests updating is not a bad idea. Of course only time will show how RED as well as other cameras develop. But to put it in another perspective, let us say that in the history of mankind no preceding generation has had such wonderful tools to shoot great images with amazing quality. As long as there is a team dedicated to make the equipments even better, it's difficult to expect more.

Sympathy and good shootings –whatever you decide to do with the cameras, you know, sitting there and waiting for the birds is a luxury of life!

 

[Dunkan Wolf]

My recent, long, post in red discussion ("Dragon, Red at a crossroads... ") has been deleted, after 15 minutes of existence, and the thread itself as well. No explanation. I wrote nothing but my opinion, in well balanced words, questioning Dragon and the near future as an early red one user, now epic MX owner fully acknowledging to be a very happy customer so far. If that opinion was simply stupid and pointless why delete ? Stupid opinions are self-destroying. Why be afraid that other might read it ? I had thought that this board was a space of free discussion, and that constructive criticizing was allowed, provided there was no libel nor malevolent intentions. If others answered in an unsuitable manner, and tried to take advantage from that thread to attain different goals, why not simply delete the posts in question ?

That kind of behavior is a surprisingly bad thing and a very wrong message. Do not bother banning me. I shall not waste my time posting any longer.

That's strange. Any clue who deleted it?
Not sure why "Dragon??? So after nearly 10months what do we think? NATIVE 2000ASA no 18stops no" was moved to the Complaint section either. The OP posted a valid question, not a complaint. The fact that it has nearly 40 pages says something. Perhaps they want to sweep critisism under the rug?

 

[David Battistella]

Perhaps they want to sweep critisism under the rug?

To be fair.

There were 40 pages of healthy discussion that happened.

The post was moved, not deleted.

The link is still there for anyone who wants to read through the pages of discussion.

How this is "sweeping things under the rug" is frankly, beyond me. It's about as open as it gets, but it depends on how you want to look at it.

Battistella

 

[Dunkan Wolf]

To be fair.

There were 40 pages of healthy discussion that happened.

The post was moved, not deleted.

The link is still there for anyone who wants to read through the pages of discussion.

How this is "sweeping things under the rug" is frankly, beyond me. It's about as open as it gets, but it depends on how you want to look at it.

Battistella

Why a 40 page 'healthy' thread needs to moved to the complaint section is beyond me as well. But okay, back on topic.

What happened to Denis thread?

 

[Gunleik Groven]

Now. I didn't remove the essay.
So I dunno about that.
I could have, though, and was considering it, as it was mostly a mixture/rehap of long discussed subjects.
Many of which was solved.

I did however move this post to complaints, as it to me looks like a complaint.

There are a number of threads discussing perceived and real and also long-fixed subjects.
Like Lauri I think it's good with input from different types of users.

I think it is good to let fixed issues go though, and see no reason to dig them up like zombies, when they're actually long gone.

I also closed down a couple of threads where the OP's question was answered, and they developed into general complaints, mostly undocumented.

I think it is good to discuss issues.
But if they're solved, they're done.

 

[Denis Buhot]

The truth*: one thread has been moved. One post, together with the thread, has been purely deleted.

The question is not whether which post is worth reading, and which is not . We have a matter of principle here.

The question is not whether those two posts dealt with horses that had been beaten to death (BTW, there are some horses I'd like to be still alive and not be untimely buried!). Nor is it whether the questions that they raised had long been solved (had they really?), or whether it was all BS (quoting David himself, whose apologies I shall readily accept. No hurt feelings).

One question is to let some judge and decide to delete, and let show overt contempt for whatever is not their concern. They are experts at some kind of shooting I am actually stupid at, they might well the artists I am not, but with all due respect, they appear to know virtually nothing about the kind of efp/eng I am in (with many others), and are simply not interested in the genres involved. And their protests will show it all the more.

Another question is that they seem to especially despise if red dragon, however outstanding in their field (and it truly is and I have never denied that), is said (rightly or wrongly)to be inappropriate and too complicated to deal with in some other field, and if more versatility is said to be needed if that kind of market is to be adressed. They despise, they decide of what is right and what is wrong, they call it msn chat, and they delete, for some reason.

My very personal opinion is that many threads here stray away from my practical needs and concentrate upon technical questions that I'd rather not be involved in. My concern as a customer is also not to let what sometimes seem to me endless discussion about workarounds help forget that workarounds are just workarounds. But that's just my opinion, because my field is different. I don't delete these threads and I respect whoever is interested because they are of practical interest to him.

I might have been wrong not to post in the efp/eng section. Or in the complaint departement. English is not my native language and, if polite and balanced, my words may sound a bit too harsh, and I am sorry for that.

Anyway, the best thing would be not to try to ridicule faithful customers and red owners, and simply allow the post that was deleted, so to just let people make their own choice to read or not, make their own judgement about what is interesting and what is not, and simply let facts speak for those who say they never meant to sweep things under the rug.

 

[Björn Benckert]

The truth*: one thread has been moved. One post, together with the thread, has been purely deleted.

The question is not whether which post is worth reading, and which is not . We have a matter of principle here.

The question is not whether those two posts dealt with horses that had been beaten to death (BTW, there are some horses I'd like to be still alive and not be untimely buried!). Nor is it whether the questions that they raised had long been solved (had they really?), or whether it was all BS (quoting David himself, whose apologies I shall readily accept. No hurt feelings).

One question is to let some judge and decide to delete, and let show overt contempt for whatever is not their concern. They are experts at some kind of shooting I am actually stupid at, they might well the artists I am not, but with all due respect, they appear to know virtually nothing about the kind of efp/eng I am in (with many others), and are simply not interested in the genres involved. And their protests will show it all the more.

Another question is that they seem to especially despise if red dragon, however outstanding in their field (and it truly is and I have never denied that), is said (rightly or wrongly)to be inappropriate and too complicated to deal with in some other field, and if more versatility is said to be needed if that kind of market is to be adressed. They despise, they decide of what is right and what is wrong, they call it msn chat, and they delete, for some reason.

My very personal opinion is that many threads here stray away from my practical needs and concentrate upon technical questions that I'd rather not be involved in. My concern as a customer is also not to let what sometimes seem to me endless discussion about workarounds help forget that workarounds are just workarounds. But that's just my opinion, because my field is different. I don't delete these threads and I respect whoever is interested because they are of practical interest to him.

I might have been wrong not to post in the efp/eng section. Or in the complaint departement. English is not my native language and, if polite and balanced, my words may sound a bit too harsh, and I am sorry for that.

Anyway, the best thing would be not to try to ridicule faithful customers and red owners, and simply allow the post that was deleted, so to just let people make their own choice to read or not, make their own judgement about what is interesting and what is not, and simply let facts speak for those who say they never meant to sweep things under the rug.

So in short you want a digital cinema camera to be a eng camera and you do not want workarounds? According to my knowledge red tries to make cinema cameras that are versatile and as modular as possible. It could be turned into perfect ENG camera, but most likely there need to be some workarounds involved.

 

[Gunleik Groven]

If my answer comes through as ridicule, I am sorry.
And you're more than welcome to discuss whatever in whatever context.

I didn't have to tell you that it was me who moved this thread or why I did it.
I just found it polite to do so.
Maybe I was wrong.

Personally I think a good thread about RED/Dragon and nature photography would be good.

The camera is what it is, though for better or worse.
Discussing a camera it isn't, can maybe bring out a great nature cam if it is worded like:

Hey, THIS is a great idea for a nature cam from RED.

Probably will not trigger a lot of good response if you go for:
Hey, I think Dragon should be a different cam.

THAT will most likely only bring out the answers from people (like myself) who value some of the choices RED has made.

The removable OLPF sounds like a great starting point for more appliances, though.

Best.
G