My last RED

[Delvon Teco]

This is all crazy talk. Should we storm RED studios!!! Kidding, of course.

I feel for all RED owners especially R1.

 

[Jean Déraps]

I love how many people here are so magnanimous with other people's losses.

Regardless of whether it's a good or bad move on the part of RED, the bottom line is that RED cameras were significantly devalued overnight which means that all those who invested in RED have lost a not insignificant amount of money.

FYI not all owner/operators are making money hand over fist with their cameras and this sudden depreciation (yes we know this type of stuff depreciates, but usually not in this manner) hurts some of us more than others.

If someone's business had been subjected to $15000 of damage by Sandy people would find it terrible and sympathize. Because it was due to marketing decision on the part of RED Inc. we are crybabies. Regardless of how such a sum of money was lost, it's a large sum of money.

Elsie N why are you so insulting and demeaning towards the initial poster and other REDUsers?

 

[Gary Jones]

Those that bought into the RED concept early were very happy to buy a camera with specifications that exceeded cameras 10x RED's price. You weren't worried about the expensive camera's re-sale value and at the time (by comparison to the Sony F35s and the like) RED had a 'cheap' brand. Now the shoe is on the other foot, and RED continue to move the market to a more realistic pricing structure and you say 'Wait! I have money invested now and want to protect it!'

Don't expect RED to let you define where the barrier to entry is. They have always wanted quality cameras in the hands of the masses.

Sony slashed the price of the F35 in the same way but they did it by making the F65 - imagine having just bought an F35 when the F65 was announced. No upgrade path and a camera worth half what it did yesterday.

Did that cheapen their brand? What happened to the re-sale value of the F35?

Step back a moment from the financial pain you are suffering and examine the situation in a cold and calculating manner. Would you have been happier if it was an Epic Dragon being released for 20K? That's what the other companies would (and are) doing. The F65 hasn't even got its full workflow sorted yet and the F55 is coming out with features that its more expensive cousin doesn't possess.

 

[Gunleik Groven]

This is all crazy talk. Should we storm RED studios!!! Kidding, of course.

I feel for all RED owners especially R1.

Hahahahahahahahaha

When I got into R1 in 2008, I was confident that its resale value wouldn't be more than 7.5k$ whithin a year.
Normal stuff

Due to Jims business practice, people have been able to sell it for ridicilous prices up untill recently.

I would expect any electronic product to devaluate by at least 50% pro anno.

Let's see

2008 - 20k
2009 - 10k
2010 - 5k
2011 - 2,5k
2012 - 1,25 k

So... Given that...
4k is still quite good...

 

[James T Mather]

I love how many people here are so magnanimous with other people's losses.

Regardless of whether it's a good or bad move on the part of RED, the bottom line is that RED cameras were significantly devalued overnight which means that all those who invested in RED have lost a not insignificant amount of money.

FYI not all owner/operators are making money hand over fist with their cameras and this sudden depreciation (yes we know this type of stuff depreciates, but usually not in this manner) hurts some of us more than others.

If someone's business had been subjected to $15000 of damage by Sandy people would find it terrible and sympathize. Because it was due to marketing decision on the part of RED Inc. we are crybabies. Regardless of how such a sum of money was lost, it's a large sum of money.

Elsie N why are you so insulting and demeaning towards the initial poster and other REDUsers?

+1. Agreed.

 

[Gunleik Groven]

Those that bought into the RED concept early were very happy to buy a camera with specifications that exceeded cameras 10x RED's price. You weren't worried about the expensive camera's re-sale value and at the time (by comparison to the Sony F35s and the like) RED had a 'cheap' brand. Now the shoe is on the other foot, and RED continue to move the market to a more realistic pricing structure and you say 'Wait! I have money invested now and want to protect it!'

Don't expect RED to let you define where the barrier to entry is. They have always wanted quality cameras in the hands of the masses.

Sony slashed the price of the F35 in the same way but they did it by making the F65 - imagine having just bought an F35 when the F65 was announced. No upgrade path and a camera worth half what it did yesterday.

Did that cheapen their brand? What happened to the re-sale value of the F35?

Step back a moment from the financial pain you are suffering and examine the situation in a cold and calculating manner. Would you have been happier if it was an Epic Dragon being released for 20K? That's what the other companies would (and are) doing. The F65 hasn't even got its full workflow sorted yet and the F55 is coming out with features that its more expensive cousin doesn't possess.

Mentioned it earlier, but last year, you could buy F35s at half the price of a c300
BEFORE the F65 was released...

Do that math in % or $

Hurts however you look at it.

 

[Andrae Palmer]

Actually quite easy...

Arri did a few smart things with the Alexa.

I agree with you... it does take a thinking man to comprehend certain aspects of human nature and perceived value. As a business operator... this undoubtedly is a concern of mine. Hence why I concentrate primarily on this issue when discussing the price slashes. Yes I agree the camera is still as capable as before... but that doesn't mean my clients will pay the same for it as before. That hurts me... but that's not even the bigger issue... the bigger issue is what if the entire brand erodes? When RED was first introduced... it had more way features...as someone just said perhaps 10x the features at 1/10th the price. That was great... you would have had to be a fool not to get in... so I got in. I worked to promote RED to my clients... I worked real hard... meetups, conversations, free demo workshops... I'm still doing free demo workshops. I wanted people to get it... it was in my business interest for them to. But RED is no longer 10x the camera for 1/10th the price. Now they are competing with heavy price slashes instead of new technology as they first did. That's a bad omen to me.

 

[Gunleik Groven]

Andrae... I actually see your point... Hahahahaha
I just have a different perspective.
To me, having access to the potential of the Epic while shooting and in post is a pure gift.
And I don't mind others having that oportunity.
Like I really like the Resolve way. Did that screw you, too?

Actually, on my own without adult supervision, I do a lot to mess up the Epic images...
But it has given me the option to do "Pristine" work, if I need to.
I just happen not to be too into that.
I am into controll, thugh
And the Epic gives me controll.

I sell images delivered, not hardware.
Guess that is it, really.

 

[Brandon J.F.]

I agree with you... it does take a thinking man to comprehend certain aspects of human nature and perceived value. As a business operator... this undoubtedly is a concern of mine. Hence why I concentrate primarily on this issue when discussing the price slashes.

Yes I agree the camera is still as capable as before... but that doesn't mean my clients will pay the same for it as before. That hurts me...

It doesn't mean they won't. Clients like dealing with people they know who have delivered for them before, but OK... let's say you are right and they hear about the price cuts (or see one of your recent posts here after a Google search) or some new people buy Epics to compete with you locally. Maybe instead of selling one of your Epics you should buy another and cut the rental rate. You seem to be doing quite well up to now. Obviously, you know your local market better than I do and I have no idea if you go out with your gear on rentals, but I would be looking into this as a way to adapt.

...but that's not even the bigger issue... the bigger issue is what if the entire brand erodes?

Jim built one of the biggest brands in the world. I think this is a subject he knows more about than any of us. He also knows what is coming with Dragon and their other products. I have no doubt the RED brand will be fine. In fact I expect that people in the industry who have dismissed them in the past will take a second look. I know some personally that have.

When RED was first introduced... it had more way features...as someone just said perhaps 10x the features at 1/10th the price. That was great... you would have had to be a fool not to get in... so I got in. I worked to promote RED to my clients... I worked real hard... meetups, conversations, free demo workshops... I'm still doing free demo workshops. I wanted people to get it... it was in my business interest for them to. But RED is no longer 10x the camera for 1/10th the price. Now they are competing with heavy price slashes instead of new technology as they first did. That's a bad omen to me.

I don't know how you can say they are competing only with price cuts and not new technology. Especially with all that is coming with Dragon, REDRAY, their Projector, MEIZLER, etc. I think we will see even more technological breakthroughs from them in the near future. Stuff we are not even expecting.

 

[Gary Jones]

I see this as a much more valid reason to leave RED behind even if I disagree with you. I wish you good luck in the future.

I agree with you... it does take a thinking man to comprehend certain aspects of human nature and perceived value. As a business operator... this undoubtedly is a concern of mine. Hence why I concentrate primarily on this issue when discussing the price slashes. Yes I agree the camera is still as capable as before... but that doesn't mean my clients will pay the same for it as before. That hurts me... but that's not even the bigger issue... the bigger issue is what if the entire brand erodes? When RED was first introduced... it had more way features...as someone just said perhaps 10x the features at 1/10th the price. That was great... you would have had to be a fool not to get in... so I got in. I worked to promote RED to my clients... I worked real hard... meetups, conversations, free demo workshops... I'm still doing free demo workshops. I wanted people to get it... it was in my business interest for them to. But RED is no longer 10x the camera for 1/10th the price. Now they are competing with heavy price slashes instead of new technology as they first did. That's a bad omen to me.

 

[Gunleik Groven]

Actually Brandon brings up a nice little thing.
The redray and the ecosystem.

But this might end up in a digi/vhs thing.

I really don't care as long as i have the images I want...

 

[Elijah Kelley]

The premise of the OP is very curious...
Spotlight does not shine so bright on you when you use a reflector.

 

[Scott Crawley]

Red:Movies=Apple:music?

Actually Brandon brings up a nice little thing.
The redray and the ecosystem.

But this might end up in a digi/vhs thing.

I really don't care as long as i have the images I want...

 

[Steve Sherrick]

I sell images delivered, not hardware.
Guess that is it, really.

I think this is definitely where the divide is. If I purely rented equipment and did nothing else with the cameras, then this probably would sting quite a bit, especially those who have purchased in recent weeks/months. This is a calculated risk on RED's part. I think they are going for the bigger picture, with the risk that they may alienate some of their current customers. It's something companies have to do all of the time. In a way, I'm sure the trade-in program was a risk too for RED but in the grand scheme of things I think they saw it as eventually being a beneficial move for their business.

Like I said, this really depends on what angle you're coming at it from. Anyone who s currently in the market for a RED camera is in a perfect position. Current owners who need additional cameras are in a perfect position. Those who rent their gear out, just bought cameras recently, etc they are in a less ideal situation right now. Even though we can point to all kinds of business protocol, how to run a business, etc. that's not going to take the sting away from some of those people and even if you don't agree with their business model, I think we have to try and be sensitive to their situation. Probably not the best time to point at them and say I told you so. In the meantime they need to vent, to cool off, to take in what has happened and eventually they will be able to move on as many of them have said. I for one don't want to pile on and take shots at them right now. I don't agree with everything that has been said, but I'm trying to be objective about it all. I do feel for them. I have had this happen to me with other products, namely in the computer industry.

 

[Jeff Kilgroe]

Hmmm.... I think

I've seen some people quote numbers in this thread and a few others. I have yet to see anyone get any of those numbers correct. Or at least get all the correct figures into one post.


Stage 2 and 3 aside, here's what we have.


EPIC-X Brain was $27,500 at launch.

It was raised to $34,500 a few months into production. <near riots ensue, people were pissed off, etc..> That's a 25.5% price increase.

Shortly after, circa NAB time or just before, RED started including the Dragon upgrade for free with new EPIC purchases where the total order was $50K or more. Anyone buying a new camera setup was most likely going to hit the $50K mark unless they were just buying a separate brain. And it would be foolish not too. It's like pre-paying for the Dragon and getting $6K worth of free accessories/ media when you buy the camera.

Last week, EPIC-X brain price dropped from $34,500 w/ free Dragon upgrade (in most cases anyway, a $6K value) to $19,000 and Dragon is now a $6K upgrade to everyone who buys from here forward. That's a

For those getting Dragon and buying an EPIC-X brain now, total is $25K. It's nearly a 45% decrease in purchase price if only the brain is considered.

If the Dragon upgrades are considered, then the price reduction last week was actually 27.5%.


A lot can vary depending on how someone wants to dissect all this.


Camera prices: Road to Dragon --

EPIC-M pre NAB 2012: $58K kit + $6K Dragon Upgrade == EPIC-M Dragon kit for $64K.

EPIC-M post NAB 2012: $58K kit + FREE Dragon Upgrade == EPIC-M Dragon kit for $58K.

Stage 2 EPIC-X Brain: $19500 + $6K Dragon Upgrade == EPIC-X Dragon brain for $25,500.

Stage 3 EPIC-X Brain: $10500 - RED One body trade-in + $6K Dragon Upgrade == EPIC-X Dragon brain for $16500

EPIC-X Brain pre NAB 2012: $27500 + $6K Dragon Upgrade == EPIC-X Dragon brain for $33500. * Add $5K for EPIC-M Brain

EPIC-X Brain post NAB 2012: $34500 + FREE Dragon Upgrade (w/ purchase of $50K+) == EPIC-X Dragon brain for $34500 if done right, otherwise $40500. * Add $5K for EPIC-M Brain

EPIC-X Brain Nov 2012: $19000 + $6K Dragon Upgrade == EPIC-X Dragon brain for $25K * Add $5K for EPIC-M Brain



Your camera's "value" was already perceived to be in the $20K Stage 2 /3 ballpark range. Rental package / hardware day rates are determined by supply and demand in most markets. EPIC kits rent out here for $250/day. Resale value on the EPIC has been held artificially low anyway due to the number of Stage-3 people dumping cameras for around what they paid for their upgrades. This has been going on for about a year. Most every owner/operator I know around here is struggling and starving. Too much competition, not enough of that sort of work. Rental rates barely cover insurance and general maintenance. Nobody wants to hire a glorified babysitter who calls himself a DIT. Productions around here don't use DIT's. They call them DIT's, but they're almost always an intern or low-paid person who does little more than copy files. Those of us in busy markets outside of Hollywood, NYC, and similar have to find other ways to make money and carve out niches for ourselves.

I find it curious how many of the Stage-2 and Stage-3 customers are highly vocal and negative about this. Seems to me the only group of people who "got screwed" are the ones that bought an EPIC-X brain over the past 6+ months or so and didn't capitalize on the $50K purchase for the free Dragon upgrade. And in that case it's self-inflicted to a large extent. Let's also not forget that if you bought the EPIC-X in the month of October, you get a $4K credit to spend on other equipment, plus if you handled it right you also got the free Dragon upgrade.

 

[Gunleik Groven]

Agreed and understood Steve.

To me it is a bit curious that any owner would further devalute their assets through badmouthing them.
That's like a perfect omen...

Otoh, I don't expect others to agree, but RED has been a very curious thing in the electronics industry, as to aftermarket prices.
And I think 50% devaluation in a year is quite a smart perspective, if you don't wanna feel burned.

If you had bought a Sony, you would still feel burned.
If you bought an Alexa, not so much.
At least not until they release a 4k+ alexa.

Still a good rule of thumb for expectations, methinks.
Buying glass otoh...

Hahahahaha

 

[Andrae Palmer]

Especially with all that is coming with Dragon, REDRAY, their Projector, MEIZLER, etc. I think we will see even more technological breakthroughs from them in the near future. Stuff we are not even expecting.

Perhaps two years ago Sony put their roadmap out for sensors. They discussed working towards achieving more dynamic range than the human eye. They currently have the highest resolution sensor on the market with the Sony F65. The Sony F55 has a global shutter, higher Dynamic Range than any "existing" RED product, and better ISO than any RED product. If RED will improve their game... so will all the other competitors. So the fact that Dragon is coming... doesn't comfort me. Regarding projectors... Sony currently owns the 4K projector market. I heard the RED projector demo at NAB didn't go so well. The Meizler is convenient but not revolutionary enough for another manufacturer to not just release a similar product.

 

[Gunleik Groven]

Again a point to you Andrae...

When a DOP friend of mine saw the Meizler, he simply said:

"Ah... Finally... There's the rest of the camera."

I won't get the Meizler, and am thus happy that it is an option.

But if you consider 22500 (with pl and ssd) + 13000 (meizler) the price of a "real" ballanced camera + somewhere to mount a battery, it is not really cheap.

Can i get the same image with just the brain?
Sure

Can I get the same useability in a traditional film setup.
No way...

 

[Scott Crawley]

If you had bought a Sony, you would still feel burned.
If you bought an Alexa, not so much.
At least not until they release a 4k+ alexa.

That is where owners who think they are protecting themselves by migrating to Alexa need to be really careful, particularly if they did not buy Epic as an upgrade. Sell your $34,500 asset @ $19000 and realize a loss only to buy an $80,000 Alexa months before a 4k variant arrives along with a 4k monitoring standard that makes it obsolete. That's a great way to turn a theoretical $15,000 loss into a very real loss of $95,000 or more. Ouch.

 

[Brandon J.F.]

Perhaps two years ago Sony put their roadmap out for sensors. They discussed working towards achieving more dynamic range than the human eye. They currently have the highest resolution sensor on the market with the Sony F65. The Sony F55 has a global shutter, higher Dynamic Range than any "existing" RED product, and better ISO than any RED product. If RED will improve their game... so will all the other competitors. So the fact that Dragon is coming... doesn't comfort me. Regarding projectors... Sony currently owns the 4K projector market. I heard the RED projector demo at NAB didn't go so well. The Meizler is convenient but not revolutionary enough for another manufacturer to not just release a similar product.

Why are you talking about buying an Alexa then and not a Sony?

I think there are some surprises yet to come from Meizler...

Do whatever you think you need to do for your business Andrae. I do hope you can calm down a bit here though. It reflects poorly on everyone, including you.