My last RED

[Scott Crawley]

OBTW, isn't it called price-fixing, collusion, or something when an industry keeps prices artificially high? RED is just doing the work of the govt. by refusing to participate in the price-fixing that's been going on for years. RED is the new trust-busters!

And if you think a few customers are unhappy, imagine how unhappy all those other fat cat camera companies are because RED broke up their sweet cartel.

LOL. I think collusion requires them to be consulting with one another. If the marketplace can be shown to support or drive the pricing, then it can be argued that it is just old-fashioned capitalism. Giving excellent value for the money is also capitalism, It's just an uncommon business model in the cinema camera market. ;-)

 

[Arnold F.]

Resale Value. Resale value. Resale value. That is the subject here.

The argument jumps from one point to another, from apples to oranges, which is why it continues. By reading over these posts there is one fact everyone agrees with: it's unwise to count on resale value from a RED camera. It can drop 50% literally overnight.

Discussions of other cameras, shooting skills, upgrades, sensors, new technologies are all irrelevant because they're particular to each individual - we will argue about them here forever. What's not particular nor subjective, and everyone here, including (or perhaps especially) the moderators including RED employees, is that a RED camera will lose resale value. Fast.

Again, if you wish to buy a RED camera you should not count on resale value and I'm probably the 100th person to say it. When you've taken that point, you can then apply the other associated issues (other cameras, upgrades, sensors, client base, etc.) and move forward on your own.

Maybe a 40% drop in resale value overnight doesn't bother you. Maybe it does. The point is that it's unarguably there and you do with it what you will.

 

[Elsie N]

Yes, 100% agree and what I was trying to say in my long post. Anyone that purchased once the stages finished (ie the mythical 'stage 4' are the ones most affected. Having paid the highest price and having the least time to realize ROI before the slash.

And even they have no bitch coming because they could have had the faith to become an early adopter of the RED one but instead were too cautious and waited to see if it was a SCAM! There was plenty of warning from Jim that it would be advantageous to own a R-1 long after it was released and proven to be the best camera for the money, at the time.

Man up cry babies. I thought Tom Lowe was being too harsh when he said that early on. And while the crying has toned down to being a whimper, it's time to dry your eyes and let the Sandman give you the sleep of acceptance.

 

[Andrae Palmer]

Gunleik,

You seem to be focused on the depreciation value of Stage 2 or Stage 3ers... I agree with you... yes sir I do.

I can sell my camera system now for what I purchased it for. That's what I'm doing right now.

I never argued that I lost resale value on my EPIC package. My points were that it was a bad business practice to have such a price slash to those that bought into the camera, that it will cheapen the brand, that the brand is now cheap... not just based on the EPIC price slash... but now you can purchase a RED One MX for the same price as a Canon 5D Mark III. My argument is about the brand being cheap. That RED is cheapening my investment and the perceived value of the camera in the market. I would rather pull out now than face more cheapening.

 

[Andy White]

And even they have no bitch coming because they could have had the faith to become an early adopter of the RED one but instead were too cautious and waited to see if it was a SCAM! There was plenty of warning from Jim that it would be advantageous to own a R-1 long after it was released and proven to be the best camera for the money, at the time.

Man up cry babies. I thought Tom Lowe was being too harsh when he said that early on. And while the crying has toned down to being a whimper, it's time to dry your eyes and let the Sandman give you the sleep of acceptance.

Wow.

 

[Elsie N]

I've paid for my camera 5 times over. Still disappointed with the manufacturer cutting the camera cost and my cameras value.

And now you are saying you will never buy another RED camera? That's like cutting your telewacker off to spite your girl friend (who admittedly is epically sleeping with a whole bunch of new customers) '-)

your parents and teachers should be prosecuted for not raising you to have better sense.

 

[Lee Dashiell]

Man up cry babies. …….. it's time to dry your eyes .

Lol…. In the long run, this will hurt RED, not me. I'll still be profitable with this camera but I'll think twice about buying the next RED.

Love that all of the defenders chimed in!

 

[George Butterfield]

Well…this will more than likely be my last RED. I'm not into it anymore. I like the image, like the size,

You're very lucky, you have a RED, you can make images you like. As my G'friend Katherine says, "Let's make a movie!"

I also have a company truck, a 2011 GMC truck with a Duramax diesel. It's dependable. I can count on it to get me just about anywhere and it also allows me to be profitable. It too has value. I can guarantee you that it will have a good trade in value next year. Why? Because GMC won't sell the 2013 for half the price of the 2011. I like that…..I'll buy another.

If GMC (are they still in business?) could make a truck at half the cost they would, 'cause someone else like Jim would already be doing it. You're happy 'cause a new 2013 truck isn't half the cost of your 2011? Do you want it to be twice as much? What are they teaching in school these days?

This "Changing the world" thing is getting out of hand.

Blame GOD, Jim's not GOD.

My camera purchases in the future will more than likely be with Sony or Panasonic or Arri. The arrogance of RED is too much for me to swallow again.
Have a nice day!

Let's see, a camera manufacturer slashes the price on its state of the art camera, and you call it arrogance? Again I say, what are they teaching in school?

 

[Vadim Bobkovsky]

The original Red One was $17K, new EPIC price isn't even that low. What arrogance, again?

 

[Scott Crawley]

Resale Value. Resale value. Resale value. That is the subject here.

The argument jumps from one point to another, from apples to oranges, which is why it continues. By reading over these posts there is one fact everyone agrees with: it's unwise to count on resale value from a RED camera. It can drop 50% literally overnight.

Discussions of other cameras, shooting skills, upgrades, sensors, new technologies are all irrelevant because they're particular to each individual - we will argue about them here forever. What's not particular nor subjective, and everyone here, including (or perhaps especially) the moderators including RED employees, is that a RED camera will lose resale value. Fast.

Again, if you wish to buy a RED camera you should not count on resale value and I'm probably the 100th person to say it. When you've taken that point, you can then apply the other associated issues (other cameras, upgrades, sensors, client base, etc.) and move forward on your own.

Maybe a 40% drop in resale value overnight doesn't bother you. Maybe it does. The point is that it's unarguably there and you do with it what you will.

That is an excellent post. However, let's not forget that Epic is a camera system, of which the brain is but one component. The resale value of a complete system has not changed as dramatically as some seem to think, as the other components have retained value and upgrade options exist.

BTW, one of those upgrade options was always brain replacement. The entire model is designed to make the brain a fairly (dare I say it) "disposable" commodity that you can swap out rapidly to keep up with this inevitable phenomenon of edit: exponentially increasing speed of advancement and declining market value.

Also, those looking to answer the W C question... you know the accessory copyright litigation question... may find an answer here.

 

[Elsie N]

Wow.

not pointed at you Andy. Just emphasizing your post. '-)

 

[Andrae Palmer]

Man up cry babies. I thought Tom Lowe was being too harsh when he said that early on. And while the crying has toned down to being a whimper, it's time to dry your eyes and let the Sandman give you the sleep of acceptance.

LOL... I like this gangsta side of you.

I got my RED One in 2008 when it couldn't even film trees without crashing and had serious overheating issues. Yes sir... remember those days when cold packs were recommended for the RED One? The RED One had vertical line issues that were hard to notice while filming.

I waited 1.5 years for my EPIC-X.. while others jumped in line with the EPIC-M program that was created months after I made my down payment. When it arrived I had vertical flaring that took up at least 1/8th the size of the image and filled it from top to bottom, the enter button on the REDmote doesn't work, I couldn't playback audio or video and it takes 25 minutes to black calibrate the camera, the Side Handle is not hot swappable as advertised. Parts came here and there and it took a while to have a full system.

I was a beta tester... I don't look at Jim Jannard as being generous. Stage 2 and 3 offer was just customer support for a manufacturer that didn't live up to "Obsolescence Obsolete" and worse... had an unfinished product to market.

 

[Elsie N]

Lol…. In the long run, this will hurt RED, not me. I'll still be profitable with this camera but I'll think twice about buying the next RED.

Love that all of the defenders chimed in!

Not necessarily a defense of RED... but of common sense.

And no need to worry about RED. They are on the verge of ruling the moving image world from acquisition to exhibition. and if you leave the company, you will come back.

 

[Andrae Palmer]

Not necessarily a defense of RED... but of common sense.

And no need to worry about RED. They are on the verge of ruling the moving image world from acquisition to exhibition. and if you leave the company, you will come back.

How do you explain the ARRI Alexa phenomenon then?

 

[Arnold F.]

Even after I took the lesson that RED cameras will go down in value faster than anything else on the planet, practically, I don't know that I would call the people who lost $20K overnight babies who need to dry their eyes. We should be taking names.

And even they have no bitch coming because they could have had the faith to become an early adopter of the RED one but instead were too cautious and waited to see if it was a SCAM! There was plenty of warning from Jim that it would be advantageous to own a R-1 long after it was released and proven to be the best camera for the money, at the time.

Man up cry babies. I thought Tom Lowe was being too harsh when he said that early on. And while the crying has toned down to being a whimper, it's time to dry your eyes and let the Sandman give you the sleep of acceptance.

 

[Lee Dashiell]

While I'm "whining" I may as well point this out too. If a company asks me to put down a 5K deposit, they better have a camera ready for me in 60 days rather than a 1 1/2 years…..that was BS too.

Have a nice day!

 

[Gunleik Groven]

Andrae, if you don't need the cam, I can follow your thinking.

To me the value is unaltered, as I use it a lot.

For me, the value, even the business value, is in using it and creating images.
It is by now a nearly 2 year old camera, that has KEPT value incredibly high.

Trying to wind back...

Alexa was released fall 2009 (sure, i pushed the rec-button in the summer, but it wasn't. Released yet)
What eøse was there?
C300 came a year ago.
The sony F3 perhaps? Same pricerange then...
The F65 wasn't released untill january this year, and hasn't really done too well. Price can be a bit of the answer to that.

Now there is competition, even in REDs price segment, and RED competes with a twoyear old product that has already paid itself off, while finnishing Dragon, which probably will be "something else"

I cannot remember RED saying dragon being released earlier than "late 2012", which in RED lingo could translate into being demoed at NAB 2013 and trickling intoour hands late 2013.

I don't really expect RED to just sit on the fence and let others eat their cake inthe meantime.

And what they did with the R1... That really made me laugh!

It's so boldly arrogant to empower a second generation of R1 users and let them learn and befriend the system and the workflow that way.

It is a finite number of r1's, but at that price (as opposed to the totally inflated and regulated aftermarket price it used to have) the camand system will reach new usergroups that will be educated throgh using, and possibly will be the truelly 1st gen of true "raw shooters". That actually grow up with that, instead of film and crappy formats.

The analogy to BlackMagic comes to mind.
As far as I know, you are an Avid Resolve user. right?
But you get paid for your skills, not your suite.

I kinda like that model...

 

[Scott Crawley]

C'mon Andre! You were doing well, but this just derails the conversation into places we have gone repeatedly. If you are jumping ship for Alexa that's cool, but that decision is separate from the Epic resale value question, isn't it?

How do you explain the ARRI Alexa phenomenon then?

 

[Lee Dashiell]

Not necessarily a defense of RED... but of common sense.

……..and if you leave the company, you will come back.

That's funny. I don't work for the company. I'm a customer, they work for me.

 

[Jon Thomasberg]

I also have a company truck, a 2011 GMC truck with a Duramax diesel. It's dependable. I can count on it to get me just about anywhere and it also allows me to be profitable. It too has value. I can guarantee you that it will have a good trade in value next year. Why? Because GMC won't sell the 2013 for half the price of the 2011. I like that…..I'll buy another.

Lee,

Since you preemptively put up your defenses in your post, I want to be clear: This is not a personal attack, merely an observation.

Perhaps using GM as the example for your analogy wasn't the best option.

--GM was mismanaged, bankrupt, and was 'too big to fail' and US taxpayers were forced to essentially buy the company. Months later, many GM products are being manufactured outside the US. When I was younger, I never thought I would live to see a Chinese Chevy. Because we were all coerced to 'buy' GM, I will not buy another GM product for the foreseeable future as a morality statement --vote with your dollars. I digress;
--While the lowering of pricing affected existing owners significantly in terms of merchantability, clearly the move was a strategic one. I would say that Red, with JJ and JL at the helm, seemingly have done a great job at driving innovation that we have all benefitted from, have given back to their loyal customers (e.g. the Stages program) and have been ahead of the curve since their founding. SO, while the price drop is a hard-swallow for those that recently paid top dollar, because of the timing, have not been afforded the same time in which to recoup their ROI, unlike others that have been working theirs (or at least were able to) for well over a year.

Am I glad that I was afforded the same price in Stage 2 (with accessories) as anyone off the street with 20 large burning a hole in their pocket today to buy a 'brain-only' -- um, actually hell yeah. Perhaps I am rationalizing it incorrectly, but if I just look at the out-of-pocket expense, my cameras have been working for the last year essentially FOR FREE.
Am I glad that my R1-M as a financial asset now worth $0, no. But it is still a working cam that makes great 4k.

Call it a Red fanboy rant, or whatever you want, but c'mon -- you can't find that deal ANYWHERE....especially in electronics.

Now, for anyone that paid top $ between 'Stages' and Oct 1, yeah timing was not on your side. Sometimes that happens.