My last RED

[Andrae Palmer]

The price was so low of the RED One MX that I used the word "resale"... what I meant was the sale price from RED. So to use your analogy... imagine if a Ferrari was sold for 16% of its former retail value and valued accessories were thrown in also. The common person would think a Ferrari is cheap. That would affect the brand... especially when people can resale the same Ferrari on the streets for 8% of it's original value.

 

[Brian Pascale]

I know you feel burned, but the next camera you buy should be the one makes most sense for your needs. Maybe that's red, maybe it's some other camera or make. For me I will be sticking with my Scarlet and other regular HD cameras I already have because I am still paying off my Scarlet. I still shoot 720 p for a lot of my jobs as they have a short shelf life and I don't have to worry about future proofing with those. Most say it is impressive the quality you can achieve with these cameras. The latitude alone makes it worth it.

There are many new camera coming out, if they offer as good or better value than what red is offering, then it makes sense to buy them. If not, then you are making an emotional decision, not a rational one. Nothing wrong with that mind you, but it may be at a big financial cost.

 

[Terry VerHaar]

The truth is, some of us believe your perceptions/analysis are flat out wrong. If they work for you, well, have a nice day!

 

[Andrae Palmer]

I know you feel burned

I don't feel burned... I wasn't by the price drop due to being Stage 2. I feel RED is cheapening their product line which affects the perceived value of the camera on the rental or owner/operator market. I also feel that they did a terrible thing to their customers which just bought into it at the full price. I don't like their business practices.

 

[Gunleik Groven]

All those who complains... Especialy stage II/III'ers...

just:
hahahahahaha

By some coincidence I am looking at a stage2 order right now...
price for brain on invoice is: 14.585,-

And it stayed that way through the hike and back again.

There are some gadgets we wanted but didn't get.
So WTF.
My Epic has shot most days since it arrived, and hasn't messed me up yet.

Value of that?

hahahahaha

 

[Philipe Ratton]

People who are saying that cameras are now computers, cameras are like cars, whatever you buy start loosing value immediately.
Yes, you are right. But the depreciation is made by the market, not the company.
Yes, it happens anyway when a new model comes out.
No, this is not the case.

 

[charles lim yi yong]

Why is Epic losing to the 'inferior' Arri Alexa. Sorry I am more concerned about this than the price. RED please keep your eye on this. Realibity and Colors which can render natural Skintones as acurrately as possible. Not some silly price war and race to the bottom.
I have DSLR cameras that do that sort of stuff which I am perfectly happy and the RED by simply cutting it's price will never fit into.

 

[Elsie N]

I don't feel burned... I wasn't by the price drop due to being Stage 2. I feel RED is cheapening their product line which affects the perceived value of the camera on the rental or owner/operator market. I also feel that they did a terrible thing to their customers which just bought into it at the full price. I don't like their business practices.

Andre, remember they are offering a $4,000 credit for those who bought an Epic in the last month. That's like a 10% rebate and 2/3 of the way to a Dragon upgrade. Do the other camera companies offer some sort of blow-softener? (Maybe they do now after RED forced them to with the Stage 2 and 3 programs.)

 

[Mark Phelan]

Well…this will more than likely be my last RED. I'm not into it anymore. I like the image, like the size, but question the company. Jim says, "You bought your camera to work, so work it". I work the hell out of my EPIC. I'm still not into having the value of my gear cut in half overnight, especially by the same company that made it.

I also have a company truck, a 2011 GMC truck with a Duramax diesel. It's dependable. I can count on it to get me just about anywhere and it also allows me to be profitable. It too has value. I can guarantee you that it will have a good trade in value next year. Why? Because GMC won't sell the 2013 for half the price of the 2011. I like that…..I'll buy another.

This "Changing the world" thing is getting out of hand. A bit of advise, when you care so much for your customers, you may want to think about your current customers rather than just the new ones.

Now, all of the RED lovers who defend RED at all cost can bash away. I'm OK with that too. I think it's a little ironic that so many people go to their defense after getting screwed by them but that's how it is.

My camera purchases in the future will more than likely be with Sony or Panasonic or Arri. The arrogance of RED is too much for me to swallow again.

Have a nice day!

So you would rather buy a camera from a company that keeps the cost high regardless, is that right? You would rather pay through the nose, thinking you were getting value, when the company said they can produce things cheaper and are adjusting their prices to reflect it. Really?

How is RED being arrogant? This comment makes no sense. They are a business and can do whatever they want, just like you can by walking away. But you are calling them arrogant for reducing the price of the camera bodies? How is that arrogant?

You had the potential to sell your equipment for a profit since you went Stage Two. Now that has been diminished and your purchase price is closer to what they are selling for now. You really haven't lost anything here.

If a job requires it, I'll buy another Epic. And I'll be glad that I only have to shell out $19,000 for the brain this time versus $34,000. I'll take that option any day of the week.

 

[Ulf Krentz]

Snip
Yes, you are right. But the depreciation is made by the market, not the company.
Snip

Seems like RED adapted to the market...don´t you think so?

 

[Andrae Palmer]

Andre, remember they are offering a $4,000 credit for those who bought in the last month. That's 2/3 of the way to a Dragon upgrade. Do the other camera companies offer some sort of blow-softener? (Maybe they do now after RED forced them to with the Stage 2 and 3 programs.)

I can hardly think of another company that dropped their camera price in half without a new model being on the market. If the EPIC Dragon was released... they wouldn't even have to slash the price of the EPIC-X... market forces would do that. Instead of releasing EPIC Dragon in November as originally announced... they released a drastic price slash. Fight with a competitive product not a race to the bottom by slashing prices.

 

[Lee Dashiell]

Not true at all... the sale value of the camera affects the brand perception of the camera. The brand perception of the camera affects how much people are willing to pay for it. A RED One MX selling for the same price as Canon 5D Mark III affects clients perception of the value. A good example of this is the ARRI Alexa... it's high priced and more valued. If RED hurts their brand... they also hurt my investment in their brand.

I agree 100%

 

[Andy White]

The whole thing is simpler than everyone is saying, in my opinion.

Most 1/2/3 stage owners should have made their cash back (and more). Stage 4 owners have been caught in a situation that has seen an item bought a short time ago, devalue by half.

That's like buying a car (BTW the car analogy being used isn't the best comparison IMO) and then having the manufacturer slash 50% of it's new value. This isn't about driving it off the lot and it loosing half it's value as you've driven a few yards - this is about the purchase value of the car itself and a massive re-positioning of that value.

Yes, kit depreciates over time, 100% agree on that, but it's the fact that the devaluation isn't spread over much time at all.

Now, the market 'perceived' value of the camera is less than half. Anyone who is trading off the name ie RED Epic used for XXX movies, now has to be careful, as their rates have to reflect new pricing and the XXX amount of new Epics on the street.

It's that reflection of new pricing that catches out (primarily) stage4 and recent buyers (the 34K crowd), who will have to work their camera and themselves harder... against a greater volume of competition/competitors (etc) to pay off their loans or make their ROI.

All I can say to the people that are loving the new Epic price so much is this, semantics aside, just think how you'd feel if you were in the position of a new(ish) Epic owner who purchased a short while ago and then this slash happens. All your planing goes out of the window. Yes, your kit is the same and 'you' are the same - but you've got a different financial situation to deal with - an extra reduction in the kit value that's been imposed (at source) by the price slash.

It all depends on your business model and how you work kit purchases into it.

A lot of the people that can't see the problem have just had an Epic path opened to them at a cheaper price point - so it's hard to see 'the other guy's' point of view - I'd like to see more logical discussion and less aggressive posturing or 'calling out' etc.

Some people are hurt by this reduction - and you'll find that some of these, despite their talents will go down.... others will rise, buoyed by the ability to get kit they couldn't afford. Yes, ultimately it's down to a mixture of luck, talent, skill and cash. It's just RED has, IMO, not helped (this time) with the slash.

That being said, I'm hopeful for the Dragon to restore some parity again and that might end up making many discussions void - especially if an Epic Dragon ends up costing more than $30K when released as a new system (ie non upgrade)

 

[Gunleik Groven]

I can hardly think of another company that dropped their camera price in half without a new model being on the market. If the EPIC Dragon was released... they wouldn't even have to slash the price of the EPIC-X... market forces would do that. Instead of releasing EPIC Dragon in November as originally announced... they released a drastic price slash. Fight with a competitive product not a race to the bottom by slashing prices.

1st.

the "Camera" cost is not slashed 50%
The "brain" with ssd, and and PL mount, costs 22.500,-

which is about 8k more than the stage 2'ers paid for it.

So...
Initially, there was a quick after-market for stage 2'ers and 3'ers COMPETING with RED, in selling their cams at a premium.
Like around 30k, which is a nice 100% profit (on the brain only)
I have seen numerous of those posts.

AFAIK RED has not even aired a complaint about being systematically underbid by their own customers on a product they have given us as a bonus for loyality.


When RED cuts the price on the head to be 8k more than all stage 2'ers paid, hell breaks lose.

Like it did at the price-increase.

Fun part, methinks, is that you guys kinda talk the value of your equipment DOWN with poor maths...

So, what stage 2'ers and 3'ers have lost, is a bit of the bonus RED gave us, 1 year later....

Not BAD, but nice.

And price is part of being competitive, wouldn't you say Andrae?

But to each his own!

Cheer up!

G

 

[Scott Crawley]

1st.

the "Camera" cost is not slashed 50%
The "brain" with ssd, and and PL mount, costs 22.500,-

which is about 8k more than the stage 2'ers paid for it.

That puts some of this in sharp relief. It calls bullshit on the notion that Red is turning it's back on loyal customers in favor of new ones. Folks in the middle (The ones who could not take advantage of the "Stage" gift pricing.) are just that; stuck in the middle, but NOBODY who got an Epic as part of the loyalty program should be bitching. Those who do need a bitch slap, it seems... I guess Gunleik just did that.

 

[Elsie N]

I can hardly think of another company that dropped their camera price in half without a new model being on the market. If the EPIC Dragon was released... they wouldn't even have to slash the price of the EPIC-X... market forces would do that. Instead of releasing EPIC Dragon in November as originally announced... they released a drastic price slash. Fight with a competitive product not a race to the bottom by slashing prices.

Andre, you or anyone else who rents your services with the camera... just raise the price for your services. If you just wanted to invest in hardware and let your investment make money for you, you should have invested in the stock market instead.

 

[Elsie N]

OBTW, isn't it called price-fixing, collusion, or something when an industry keeps prices artificially high? RED is just doing the work of the govt. by refusing to participate in the price-fixing that's been going on for years. RED is the new trust-busters!

And if you think a few customers are unhappy, imagine how unhappy all those other fat cat camera companies are because RED broke up their sweet money-making cartel.

 

[Andy White]

That puts some of this in sharp relief. It calls bullshit on the notion that Red is turning it's back on loyal customers in favor of new ones. Folks in the middle (The ones who could not take advantage of the "Stage" gift pricing.) are just that; stuck in the middle, but NOBODY who got an Epic as part of the loyalty program should be bitching.

Yes, 100% agree and what I was trying to say in my long post. Anyone that purchased once the stages finished (ie the mythical 'stage 4' are the ones most affected. Having paid the highest price and having the least time to realize ROI before the slash.

 

[Lee Dashiell]

I've paid for my camera 5 times over. Still disappointed with the manufacturer cutting the camera cost and my cameras value.

 

[egon touste]

I do empathise.. that said, i think i just re-bought my last red for $4k