My Dragon Thoughts

[Christopher Probst]

Christopher, you have completely missed my point. I have no doubt that Dragon is all the things you say no doubt at all. But it is still just a camera. and thus just one part in the chain to making great images. Same as before.

Okay Liam, I get your point and in fact, in many of my posts, the overall theme has been: "Shut up, learn your shit, shoot, analyze, better yourself, repeat..." And THEN let the work speak for itself. I'm never satisfied with my work. I always see the flaws and limitations I could not somehow solve or conquer. First and foremost, YOU have to be the game changer in your work. There are no scape-goats... dependency on a gaffer, or an operator, or a director or an AC to make your work great OR as an excuse for why it doesn't meet expectations and a cop-out for why you don't own your work.

Yes we as cinematographers are the ones that have to get up at 3AM, make the decisions on what lights, lenses, movement, utilization of crew, ect... that we use. We DIRECT the photography. The camera is just one link in that chain... But for me, speaking only on the camera hardware side of my job. This camera changes everything for me.

So no disrespect intended... AND I'm glad you get the idea that it's PEOPLE that shoot and create images, not cameras. Simply owning the most expensive or fancy gadgetry doesn't make you an excellent cinematographer. It's years of practice, studying light and technique, coupled with your own personal aesthetic that can make your images stand out amongst the fray...

Be the change my friend... :smiley:

 

[Terry VerHaar]

Haha - there is always the need for balance. You can get up at 3AM and get the producer drum on a daily basis but show up with an iPhone for the shoot and you'll not get all the work you want. Let's give Christopher the respect he deserves and recognize that he knows the value of "those other things." He lives them. He obviously means that the Dragon is a game changer for all the things a camera is and does. And it does seem that Dragon will change the game we play. No need to split hairs.

:smiley:

Great comments, Christopher. I fear you are going to cost me an additional $19K.

 

[Liam Hall]

Okay Liam, I get your point and in fact, in many of my posts, the overall theme has been: "Shut up, learn your shit, shoot, analyze, better yourself, repeat..." And THEN let the work speak for itself. I'm never satisfied with my work. I always see the flaws and limitations I could not somehow solve or conquer. First and foremost, YOU have to be the game changer in your work. There are no scape-goats... dependency on a gaffer, or an operator, or a director or an AC to make your work great OR as an excuse for why it doesn't meet expectations and a cop-out for why you don't own your work.

Yes we as cinematographers are the ones that have to get up at 3AM, make the decisions on what lights, lenses, movement, utilization of crew, ect... that we use. We DIRECT the photography. The camera is just one link in that chain... But for me, speaking only on the camera hardware side of my job. This camera changes everything for me.

So no disrespect intended... AND I'm glad you get the idea that it's PEOPLE that shoot and create images, not cameras. Simply owning the most expensive or fancy gadgetry doesn't make you an excellent cinematographer. It's years of practice, studying light and technique, coupled with your own personal aesthetic that can make your images stand out amongst the fray...

Be the change my friend... :smiley:

Yep. Couldn't agree more. Thanks for the considered reply Christopher.

 

[Liam Hall]

No need to split hairs.

Yes, fair enough.

 

[Sean Cruser]

would love to see some images....

 

[paulherrin]

Christopher, you have completely missed my point.

i feel like you're making a point somewhere liam, i really do. but i'm not exactly sure what it is, honestly. you just think we're all too hyped up about the next big thing? maybe so. everything that's ever gone into making storytelling compelling is still at play, just like it was yesterday... and the day before... and the day before that. see what i'm getting at? if you take it back long enough you're going to have to concede that all that is needed is a human doing nothing out of the ordinary to make a story. is cinema not special? has writing not restructured consciousness? the technologies of today literally - well, virtually - shape our existence. i think that's pretty damn noteworthy. this is jim jannard's legacy and it doesn't need defending, it's awe-inspiring, it's epic

i do want to thank you, liam - and i understand your frustration, and i hope you'll forgive my own - for trying to keep us in check. that's legit. there's a lot of technical discussion that happens here - but there's also a lot of hype sometimes rippling through the crowd-surfers without very much discussion of the art of cinema... you absolutely make a good point (i think) in bringing up the idea that we would do well at this point - now that we have a more than adequate piece of technology to catch up to - to dig into aesthetic expression, artistic experience, and narrative techniques, and maybe a lot of other things. let's do it.

art and science together is alchemy.
oh look, here's a thread right here already:

the future of storytelling

maybe i wax eloquent too much, i dunno, i guess i haven't done enough yet. i'm too young in the brain, i haven't gotten my groove yet, that's fair. but i'm trying to engage some conversations here because i feel like i owe it to the red community that has taught me so much about the science of cinema. i need some reasonable minds to keep me in check and engage in serious discussion about the art of cinema. let's do it. we're co-creators of our destiny. we have this community - you guys that i feel like i know fairly well in a weird way - because of red - because of jim and jarred and graeme and every other person - real dudes with real names have designed this place purposely to be special - there's nowhere else like this that i've ever found anywhere - that's what's real to me in this virtual place.

 

[Phil Holland]

I trust your opinion Christopher and have always liked reading your posts, but game changer? No such thing. Mark my words.

You know what, I'm going to stop now... I'm annoying myself breaking this down because at some point if you don't get it, I don't WANT you to get it. I really do prefer all my competition out there shooting Alexa. So by all means continue to NOT see the same reality I do. I know what I want and need out of a digital motion picture camera. My wildest dreams have been answered.

The best way to think "game changer" here, is that Dragon surpasses Super 35mm motion picture film in every way. Resolution, color, tonal reproduction, dynamic range, etc... Chris laid it down pretty clear with the feature set.

This is the first time this has happened in reality.

While I hate, hate, hate the "game changer" term as it's overused throughout marketing spin; Dragon will be the camera that induces the big switch for a lot of film folks and will certainly attract other digital cinema camera shooters to the Red side of the force.

Mark my words.

 

[Jason Diamond]

While I hate, hate, hate the "game changer" term as it's overused throughout marketing spin; Dragon will be the camera that induces the big switch for a lot of film folks and will certainly attract other digital cinema camera shooters to the Red side of the force.

Mark my words.

Having also shot Dragon I can concur with both Chris and Phil. This sensor just "FEELS" different in every way. From a larger breathing room of latitude to a dense 65mm feel. It is entirely noticeable just looking at the touchscreen or monitor immediately out of the gate.

This is definitely going to be the sensor that pushes a lot of DoP's over the edge into digital acquisition.

 

[Gunleik Groven]

Dragon files are "more" in a good way of everything I want in a camera.

Does not make me a better shooter, but makes me have security I got the shot, unless I messed up.

Still needs a hand and an idea, as everyone has pointed out.

 

[Jeremy Torrie]

Some valid observations here. And yes Dragon won't immediately turn you into the world's greatest filmmaker...it's a tool to do the work you need to do. But I envision some incredible naturalistic images about to grace this site, and on screens around the world very soon.

 

[paulherrin]

haha, i just wanna say this is like the all-star thread right now... look at who's posting - you've all spent some time here consistently sayin stuff and i have a huge respect for each one of you. i guess toia and tom are sleeping on the other side of the world, who else do we need to wake up? just don't bring jim out of 'retirement' over another argument, i'm hoping he's happy... haha

speaking of, i've gotta get some sleep myself... i need to rest up for a very important kickball tournament that starts in... 5 hours. carry on, peace!

 

[Christian Jadot]

I have not seen the Dragon in person. So I am just sort of talking about what I have seen on here. But my 2 cents.

The Epic Dragon (and maybe the F65) have reached a technology plateau. Where there is everything you really need in a single camera. Things will get smaller, faster and cheaper. More resolution is always good, more dynamic range is always good, a better ISO is always good, however past this point it is more of a refinement vs. a major advance. DSLR have hit this point a couple generations back, mega pixels no longer really matter, most DSLR's can handle high ISO's with little problem. It becomes nitpicking after that. I think the Epic Dragon is this turning point for cinema cameras.

Until the next major breakthrough (where is the depth mapping and a depth channel mentioned a while back?) I see the Dragon setting the plateau.

 

[Blair S. Paulsen]

Every production I've ever worked on had to make some compromises due to time, budget, logistics, technical limitations, etc. All depend on talent.

What I take from Christopher's notes is that the Epic Dragon means less compromises. Which means he can deliver an image that much closer to the ideal image he sees in his head, even when other factors remain the same. He's stoked about that, so am I.

Game changer? I would say yes because the camera/sensor opens up new creative territory, starting with more image data (including more chroma) in the exposure extremes. It also captures subtle textures like a high end still camera or 65/70mm film which can add "feel". For many projects the real kicker is just how much more complexity is revealed in skin tones. Note: I can promise you that even if nobody else sees the Dragon as a game changer, the make up artists will. Do yourself a favor and pay attention to providing a useful feedback loop so they can dial it in (or better yet get them on the prep). Don't let this scare you. Yes, over-sharpened HD has a deserved reputation for emphasizing flaws, but with enough real resolution its essentially WYSIWYG.

Cheers - #19

 

[Paul Harb]

Lets pretend this is actually possible......just to be silly......can someone who actually understands the post workflow for a feature explain to me why in the world any editors or producers want to cut R3D's for a feature???? Commercials, music videos, and 20k one man band features dont count, Im talking about the kinds of features Chris shoots.

Anyone?

" or "POST is requesting Alexa..."

heh heh

you are right.

yes - we hear this often, too. still nonsense. all this people do not realize that there are even cheap Apps (i mean FCPX hehh hehh) that can edit Raw Files of Epic on an macbook pro. for commercials this is a solid workflow - edit - EDL - Da Vinci. and so much more space to stabilize, scale, ...
some stuck in the past.
can´t wait for my dragon and the new mac pro ... will be a nice new world for everyone (from high budget to independent filmer)

 

[Paul Harb]

I am excited to see some Dragon footage from some productions with budgets to see what this thing can really do and I think Chris is an extremely talented cinematographer so I look forward to seeing what he has done with it as well.

 

[Blair S. Paulsen]

(snip) why in the world any editors or producers want to cut R3D's for a feature???? (snip)

I'll bite. If your NLE has native support for R3Ds, as well as myriad other file types - and - your hardware can manage 1/4 res debayer without a noticeable performance hit, why not? I contend they only care if it slows them down. The real fly in the ointment is usually a post infrastructure and workforce that revolves around AVID.

So if Paul's point is that many of the major shops are AVID based, therefore any format that doesn't have robust native AVID support is a fail, that's fair enough - as long as you don't mind letting post dictate your camera choice ;-). BTW, they also want ProRes not ARRIRAW, now that they're in charge and all.

Cheers - #19

 

[Liam Hall]

The best way to think "game changer" here, is that Dragon surpasses Super 35mm motion picture film in every way. Resolution, color, tonal reproduction, dynamic range, etc... Chris laid it down pretty clear with the feature set.

I wasn't going to play any more but since it's you Phil...

You've kind of proved my point

Yes, Dragon will outstrip S35mm film in terms of resolution, latitude, dynamic range, cost etc but, I'd guess less than 1% of Epic jobs are destined for the silver screen, so I don't see beating film resolution will change the game for the vast majority of shooters.

I do believe, if RED, armed with the best camera available, start to repair their brand image they will win back many of the jobs they have lost to Alexa in the HD world. For example, next week I'm shooting a job in Qatar that the producer stipulated would be an Alexa shoot (it turned into a C300 shoot, but that's immaterial), maybe next year she'll want it on Dragon. The ball is in Red's court. They have made some poor calls lately from a PR perspective, they need to step it up. It's not just about pixels.

 

[Terry VerHaar]

I disagree that PR will win this war. It might distract from the reality for awhile but if Dragon is the best, it will be recognized as such.

 

[Liam Hall]

I disagree that PR will win this war. It might distract from the reality for awhile but if Dragon is the best, it will be recognized as such.

I wouldn't disagree with you Terry. But it will help a great deal.

One reason Arri gained traction so quickly was because people trusted the brand. That trust doesn't go so deep with RED, it never has. Lately their PR has been worse than ever. They need to fix that IMHO.

 

[Phil Holland]

I wasn't going to play any more but since it's you Phil...

You've kind of proved my point

Yes, Dragon will outstrip S35mm film in terms of resolution, latitude, dynamic range, cost etc but, I'd guess less than 1% of Epic jobs are destined for the silver screen, so I don't see beating film resolution will change the game for the vast majority of shooters.

I do believe, if RED, armed with the best camera available, start to repair their brand image they will win back many of the jobs they have lost to Alexa in the HD world. For example, next week I'm shooting a job in Qatar that the producer stipulated would be an Alexa shoot (it turned into a C300 shoot, but that's immaterial), maybe next year she'll want it on Dragon. The ball is in Red's court. They have made some poor calls lately from a PR perspective, they need to step it up. It's not just about pixels.

Heh. I understand different markets and what not, but you sort of proved my point as well. The advantage will be seen not only on big screens, but UHD displays all over. Which is slowly growing in force everyday. If you could potentially have that quality at your fingertips, on productions, and crafting the captured image. The real question is why wouldn't you? And yes, I'm aware we live in different times in regards to budgets and what not.

In terms of branding, I see similar love/hate from other shooters and companies out there. Loyalists exist and there's many reasons for it. That's sort of the fun bit about all of this. The "I won't shoot on camera X because of Y" concept is funny to me, mostly because I test things and learn how to shoot proficiently on each system. That comes only from experimenting and sort of an unhealthy fascination.

I'm sorry about your C300 shoot however I refuse to work in less than 4K, but that's merely relative to my world and work. I have very strong feelings about that particular concept and that's existed since my film days.

Resolution aside; the dynamic range, color reproduction, and overall character of Dragon is going to be the bigger eye opener here. At least to me. I expected the resolution gains honestly, I wasn't exactly prepared for how good the material looked overall though. It was actually much better than expected. I also am a bit impressed about whatever voodoo is going on with REDCODE RAW and Dragon.