MX to Epic-W Upgraders.

[Jaimy Soares]

Hey Guys,
Was wondering if some of you already heard something from their rep.
I ordered the 11th on 11:24. Nothing as of yet but that's I think pretty understandable.
Share your stories

 

[Med D]

I'm curious to see how many will take this route. It does not seem compelling to me.

 

[Mike P.]

I'm curious to see how many will take this route. It does not seem compelling to me.

Really? But isn't it $10k off??... Put another way; do you think you'd actually be able to sell an R1, Scarlet-X, Epic-X - brains-only, no less - for $10k? I mean, a DSMC2 Scarlet-W brain is only $9500!

It's a pretty compelling offer to anyone who has any interest in 8k at this point in time (conversely, that ain't me.)

 

[Matt Doane]

I really considered it, but at the end of the day the Epic-W isn't a good fit for us. I'm sure it's an amazing camera all around and I'd love to shoot with it. But, we're a business, and need to buy the right camera for our workflow.

Our R1MX is in the marketplace now if anyone is interested in that sweet upgrade discount! Hint, hint.

 

[Phil Holland]

No offense as I have a little bit of my own personal opinion here going on (but also well grounded by a mind numbing amount of tests and shoots), but if you are shooting Mysterium-X and don't see the shear color advantages along of Dragon and/or Helium you're missing out.

 

[Matt Doane]

No offense as I have a little bit of my own personal opinion here going on (but also well grounded by a mind numbing amount of tests and shoots), but if you are shooting Mysterium-X and don't see the shear color advantages along of Dragon and/or Helium you're missing out.

There's a lot more going into that decision than just color science or resolution. I'm well aware of those advantages, and choosing not to upgrade is in no way me trying to diminish them. The fact is, we're a small team, and we might shoot once a month. Production is only part of our business. When we are on set we need a camera that makes things easy, and the C300 fits our system better. Small things like internal ND, autofocus, built-in XLR inputs, and cheaper batteries/media make a huge difference for us. If we had a bigger team, and shot more often, I'm sure that would change things.

Saying that, no doubt will I miss R3Ds.

 

[Med D]

I definitely see the advantages of the new sensor and system, but financially I do not find the deal compelling. I did not look at it so much as "can I sell my Epic MX for more than $10k" as I did "is the new camera worth $25k plus my Epic". I came up with $25k as the cost of the upgrade plus a 5" monitor and a battery back -- the most basic kit possible.

It's not worth that to me. I paid less than that amount for my Epic originally, brand new, with accessories,and I don't think paying even more now is worth it for the new features. I actually am kind of scratching my head at the new camera being so much more expensive than the older ones -- $30k for the Epic and $60k for Weapon. It looks like the market will support it, judging from the excitement around here, but I generally look for technology to come down in price over time.

I don't mean to sound like I am complaining about the upgrade deal. I'm neither complaining about it nor thanking RED for it. It's not useful to me as it does not represent a good value. I am curious how many other Epic MX people feel the same.

 

[Steve Sherrick]

As a Red One MX owner....

For me personally, I have not felt a need to upgrade my R1 over the years as I prefer to hire DPs and their gear when budget allows me to. I originally purchased the R1 as an exciting tool for my own production work back in 2006 (when I first put down deposit). I also knew it might attract some interest based on the 4K alone, but what I didn't anticipate was I would then be launched into a DIT career for the next several years. So, a lot of the camera was paid for via renting it to productions that I was also the DIT on. And it got use on my own productions, although never as much as I wanted due to being busy working on other's projects.

The Epic upgrade deal was great, very tempting at the time, but I couldn't justify it. If I did it, it would solely be out of emotional connection to the technology and not really based on a business model. So I passed. I've stood on the sidelines for the past few years watching the evolution of the RED camera development. It's been fun. And my R1 was still capable, even as new RED cameras out performed it spec wise. But to be honest, I'm not a good enough DP to out perform the R1.

So now in 2016, my business model still remains the same. For projects that have the budget, I hire DP/gear. The only time I use my own cameras are when it's a project that needs some love from a budget perspective but is still trying to have decent image quality. That's when I pull out the R1 and even my BMPCC. And quite honestly, I think I can survive doing that for quite some time. But yet, at the moment I've put myself on the list to get an Epic W. What gives? Well, a couple of things intrigue me.

1. The size of the camera and how much power it packs. I've never been afraid of R1's weight but I'd be lying if I said there aren't times when a smaller RED would have helped in certain filming scenarios. So, size and weight is attractive for me at the moment.

2. I feel the color science improvements will be enough to make me want it in my personal arsenal of tools. R1 has some issues that have been documented over the years. I feel it's got a great image with a few warts here and there. Most of which you can hide with some careful post work, especially with talented colorists. But i expect Helium color science to really be a leap for RED and that's something that makes me look seriously at this upgrade.

Some things that give me pause:

1. I will need to upgrade everything. New media, new on board monitors/EVF, support gear, etc. That's not really a complaint though, as all of those things have vastly improved from R1 days. The media part is the biggest killer in terms of capacity. Right now I have SSDs and RED drives (for backup purposes only if got in a jam and needed more media). But obviously the new media has higher capacity, much faster and smaller form factor. So, everything has improved.

2. Do I really need 8K? There's part of me that feels the Scarlet W would solve the size factor for me and is an improvement all around. And price point to invest in that is cheaper. But I suspect that the Epic W will just be a cleaner image with better color when all is said and done. But the Scarlet W checks off a lot of boxes. I think where I justify this camera over the Scarlet is post flexibility and improvements in noise.

3. Price point. Let me be clear. RED owes me nothing. If Jarred said, sorry Red One guys but you have had your cameras for a long time, plenty of time to make money, no upgrade possibility. I would not have blinked. I was actually shocked that there was any path offered to R1 owners. So, the issue is not with the upgrade price, it's with whether I can personally justify the $30K investment when my business model doesn't really support the purchase. That's what I'm struggling with. $30K for a camera with this much power is not a crazy amount of money but it's enough where I have to take several deep breaths and be a responsible business owner.

I will say this, for anyone who is coming from an MX camera and they use their cameras on a regular basis, getting rental income on said cameras, then this really is a no brainer if you can afford it. This ensures you are into the next gen of cameras which will probably be a very good thing moving forward. I'm just in a different boat then a lot of you who are working DPs or production companies that own and use their own equipment. So, for me to even be on this list tells you how excited I am about the new cameras.

 

[Jaimy Soares]

I think it's fair. I have a MX that I have used and abused for almost 4 years. Offcourse I can use it still, but I can do it finacially, so why should I not. It will improve all that I do.

 

[Michael Hoffman]

I'm doing an upgrade... but am selling my MX package separately once the camera ships.

I had another RED on order - a Raven - I was able to swap to the Epic W - for the price break yesterday.

And - I'll be perfectly honest - there's still nothing wrong the older MX cameras. A tiny pass of DNR - and some tinkering with the levels - I've always been able to match them relatively closely to the Epic Dragon footage I've shot - despite less DR

I still LOVE my Scarlet X!

I'll put it like this - I directed a feature that's still playing on Syfy/Chiller - and was on Showtime for 2 years - on a Varicam 3700 (with a P+S Technik PL adapter) - and the Scarlet X still blows that cam away.

 

[Peter Majtan]

...I actually am kind of scratching my head at the new camera being so much more expensive than the older ones -- $30k for the Epic and $60k for Weapon...

You are looking at the top of the line 8K Helium cameras and ignoring the $7K Raven that packs Dragon into DSMC2 body with simultaneous ProRes and 4.5K @ 120fps, or the Scarlet-W - which at $10K actually has a specs of your old MX Epic - while containing the same newer Dragon sensor in the DSMC2 body with the integrated ProRes / DNxHD proxies. So the technology indeed got both better AND cheaper...

:sifone: Peter

 

[Aaron michaels]

I don't think a Raven can touch the Epic-MX...The Epic's are amazing for a reason but I think the weapon 8K is a killer! Mad game changer

 

[Paramon Ivanovich]

no upgrade for me, i love the idea , and i want it baaaaaaad, but i can't justify the expenses;
as a hobbyist making less then $50K with my shooting - no go.
if Red would open that MX to Dragon window again, even BT, cuz they gonna have a shit load of them now, i would go for refurbished one,
but my Epic, even MX, to Raven, no thx!
Maybe Scarlet W? Just want that DSMC2

 

[Mike P.]

Alright, so follow up question; how much do people think they'll be able to get for their used Epic-X/Epic-Dragon brains?

I hope they do a BT fire sale...

 

[Med D]

I'm looking at a straight comparison, Epic to Epic. The new one is more expensive than the old one.

You are looking at the top of the line 8K Helium cameras and ignoring the $7K Raven that packs Dragon into DSMC2 body with simultaneous ProRes and 4.5K @ 120fps, or the Scarlet-W - which at $10K actually has a specs of your old MX Epic - while containing the same newer Dragon sensor in the DSMC2 body with the integrated ProRes / DNxHD proxies. So the technology indeed got both better AND cheaper...

:sifone: Peter

 

[Fabio Lanzone]

I don't think a Raven can touch the Epic-MX...

Uhm , yes and no. I used to shoot with the Epic MX until I bought the Raven. I shoot almost everything at 2.40:1, so what I "miss" from the MX is 500 more pixels in width, higher pixel pitch, anamorphic, interchangeable lens mount, 2:1 compression (while the Raven goes up to 3:1). But, with the Raven you get: Dragon sensor and its color science, better DR, less noise, auto calibration map, integrated WiFi, DSMC2 modules compatibility, quieter fans, ProRes/DNxHD in camera.
They are not comparable, but for someone like me who doesn't need a PL mount and anamorphic the Raven was a step forward over the MX. And with a 5000€ brain

 

[Zack Birlew]

You know, I would really love to be able to do the Epic-W path but it's the same deal as with the RED One MX back in the day, I simply can't afford it right now. But this time it's not only financially but also time-wise because I'm in pre-production on a feature film that will start shooting soon. If we had the budget, I'd splurge and go for it but I need the RED One MX for VFX shots so I can't get rid of it right now or really wait for an Epic-W package to come in as I'm sure I'd be in the back of the line at this point as it is the latest camera on the block and I'm sure there's tons of trade-ins happening as we speak. As a camera owner, I'd be thrilled to have an Epic-W as it just makes sense moving forward, especially with the Prores and DNXHR options for non-critical or fast work. However, I would also be happy to pick up an Epic Dragon, whether through another upgrade path, potential BT fire sale, or even once used prices come down. The thing is that these cameras are all filming in 4K RAW ***AT MINIMUM***, so you can't lose, they're all great, so even if people don't trade in their cameras, it's all good because as I said when I got my RED One MX a little while ago, there's still no camera on the market under $10,000 that can match it. If our budget changes or if a great deal comes up, things can always change, but for now I'm still good with sticking with my RED One MX.

 

[Paramon Ivanovich]

Uhm , yes and no. I used to shoot with the Epic MX until I bought the Raven. I shoot almost everything at 2.40:1, so what I "miss" from the MX is 500 more pixels in width, higher pixel pitch, anamorphic, interchangeable lens mount, 2:1 compression (while the Raven goes up to 3:1). But, with the Raven you get: Dragon sensor and its color science, better DR, less noise, auto calibration map, integrated WiFi, DSMC2 modules compatibility, quieter fans, ProRes/DNxHD in camera.

this is very interesting, thank you Fabio for sharing your experience, especially as an EpicMX shooter.

 

[Thomas Koch]

I never really liked the MX sensor. Loved the Mysterium, absolutely adore the dragon. But I'm ready for the helium. I have to keep my Epic Dragon around for a while, until Scarlet-W's can be bought off the floor, or are replaced. Upgrading a Scarlet-W deposit. The upgrade in media is really the killer part, however, the redmag trade in program helps. Provided my Rep ever gets back to me with the specifics of how to execute them.

 

[Aaron michaels]

I think that was a down grade for me and I love the MX sensor's The R1 & the Epic-MX. I'm waiting to see what they are going to do next . i went from scarlet to Epic-MX & R1 because of the features, these are my dream cameras so no more updates for the cameras or my editing system. This will save me a ton of money and yes everything will be out dated but when the footage is mind blowing who cares. You wouldn't know unless you asked what camera did I use. I like the beauty of creating the art all of this low light stuff is for the new guys.