Motion Control for Macro Need Suggestions

[Daniel AnTon Johnson]

I work for a photographer that's getting more into video. They mostly work with beauty brands, and they've been approached about doing some smaller budget product shots to be inserted into TV spots. The references they gave have a little bit of movement, but nothing too complex. I assumed that some kind of motion control rig was used like the Bolt. However, there's not enough budget for the full rig (I called around and got an estimate for moco rig and crew for about $7,500 a day not including other departments).

So I have two questions:

Is that an accurate price for renting that kind of rig? I'm in NY. Are there other options that I'm overlooking?

And second, is there a cheaper way to get repeatable movements like this for products that are small without the robot arms? The Bolt hasn't been around forever, and I'm assuming these types of shots were made other ways before the Bolt became a thing.


Can't find the specific samples they referenced online, but similar to what's happening in the link below at about 00:17 - 00:22 where the product is moving and the camera position changes.
https://www.ispot.tv/ad/InSK/olay-regenerist-shatters-the-competition-good-housekeeping

 

[Nick Gardner]

Why does it need to be Moco? do the shots need multiple passes? Often it is easier to move the item than the camera. Turn table, linear slider, boom on a dolly etc. That being said, with the right lenses and a solid dolly, you can do some pretty good real time moves on macro stuff.

and yes, that sounds just about right for a small moco rig. Also be advised they are a time suck.

Nick

 

[Martin Konrad]

Have a look at my website, martinkonrad.com that kind of stuff is 80% of my work. If you have no live action, water drops and such you can get a lot done with motorised turntables, sliders and 3d heads. There is a recent reduser post on 4 axis motion control recommendations. I use Kessler stuff and quite a few adapted setups. Where it's getting complicated is fast camera movements with no shake when you are close to macro. The only option are robots and that's expensive.

 

[Frank Martin]

Before we jumped on the bolt bandwagon at Robot Stiudios in past few years we did just what Nick said, turntables, Dollies, linear sliders with very accurate motors or tinyhydraulic pistons that the product was on.....Aside from repeatable moves focus becomes the issue. With a MOCO rig you will not lose focus. with Macro stuff that can be tricky but with a good AC you will find it as well

 

[Björn Benckert]

If you dont move high speed milo is better than bolt. Strange enough Cyclops the bigest of them all actually does best macro moves, if you want super accuracy, no shake / jitter etc. Milo and cyclops where invented in early 80´s so yes they been around for pretty much for ever.

You get a bolt junior here in Stockholm for less than half that price. But bolts are actually not so good for fast moves their motors have quite low resolution and jitters when going ultra slow which is normally what you want to do for macro to get really long expsosures etc.

 

[Sean Lonergan]

emotimo spectrum might be a good affordable option compared to the bolt for what you need. can do repeatable 4axis moves including focus with a dana dolly. its fairly easy to setup once you do it a few times and get the hang of it. 15lb max for your rig, i would recommend less if possible. they offer a turntable option as well which would allow you to pull off moves similar to your sample.


https://emotimo.com/

 

[Björn Benckert]

emotimo spectrum might be a good affordable option compared to the bolt for what you need. can do repeatable 4axis moves including focus with a dana dolly. its fairly easy to setup once you do it a few times and get the hang of it. 15lb max for your rig, i would recommend less if possible. they offer a turntable option as well which would allow you to pull off moves similar to your sample.


https://emotimo.com/

The target tracking focus and stuff that the mrmoco comes with is quite needed if you want to do somewhat good macro, and stability. I tried all the small slider dollies... usually that makes you end up in a position where things takes lots of time and where it gets difficult to get the shots the clients need. And if you start to move them fast... then they shake all over the place if doing macro.

 

[Nick Gardner]

emotimo spectrum might be a good affordable option compared to the bolt for what you need. can do repeatable 4axis moves including focus with a dana dolly. its fairly easy to setup once you do it a few times and get the hang of it. 15lb max for your rig, i would recommend less if possible. they offer a turntable option as well which would allow you to pull off moves similar to your sample.

I have a similar system, and I don't think it could hold up to macro shots. You need mass to prevent shakes and jitters when you are in macro world.

Nick

 

[Daniel AnTon Johnson]

I had no idea the Milo and cyclops were around since the 80s! Also, your work looks great Martin. Good to know I can get solid results without the robots.

Found the other thread, if anyone else is looking. http://www.reduser.net/forum/showth...stem-recommendations&highlight=motion+control

And I made GIFs of the reference movements here, https://imgur.com/a/lwn70o0. It makes sense that moving the object would be easier than moving the camera. Is there a standard way to rig up a surface that moves? I'm thinking I could get some speed rail and try to rig a 4x4 surface to a dana dolly.

It doesn't have to be motion control, I didn't know how to make movements at the macro scale without it being all bumpy and while still keeping everything in focus. Will see what kind of sliders I can get a hold of. Might use a dolly too. Thanks!

 

[Björn Benckert]

Here is a macro thing I did a while back using the ziess super macro 50mm. its would have been difficult to make with the emotimo slider

The strange thing is when doing macro stuff it always start out simple and then, shit start to cake on and get complicated. When using sliders and such then I feel lot of times you very quickly get to a point where its limiting what your doing. The programable cranes has way bigger scope before hitting those limits. Like target tracking focus for example on a slider it could be 200 keyframes and focus still pump trough the surface of the bottle when making the move, but with good / real target tracking its two keyframes and it locks dead on. Such stuff can easily just waist a day in studio and usually pisses clients and everyone off. So find the big cranes usually to be a big cost saver.

https://f.io/GYEHlB77

 

[Daniel AnTon Johnson]

Here is a macro thing I did a while back using the ziess super macro 50mm. its would have been difficult to make with the emotimo slider

The strange thing is when doing macro stuff it always start out simple and then, shit start to cake on and get complicated. When using sliders and such then I feel lot of times you very quickly get to a point where its limiting what your doing. The programable cranes has way bigger scope before hitting those limits. Like target tracking focus for example on a slider it could be 200 keyframes and focus still pump trough the surface of the bottle when making the move, but with good / real target tracking its two keyframes and it locks dead on. Such stuff can easily just waist a day in studio and usually pisses clients and everyone off. So find the big cranes usually to be a big cost saver.

https://f.io/GYEHlB77

Definitely not getting away with using a slider for that! Looks great!

Hoping that a slider and some ingenuity will be enough for this first shoot. Most of the work we do is macro for stills, so we know how time consuming it can be. I have a feeling seeing how time consuming it is to get shots in focus and without a bunch of camera shake will help steer the client towards giving us the budget to do it with the Milo. Coincidentally, Steve Giralt is doing an open house demo thing this week with a couple of his robots. Going to attend that and hopefully get some tips that aren't "buy one."

 

[Björn Benckert]

Definitely not getting away with using a slider for that! Looks great!

Hoping that a slider and some ingenuity will be enough for this first shoot. Most of the work we do is macro for stills, so we know how time consuming it can be. I have a feeling seeing how time consuming it is to get shots in focus and without a bunch of camera shake will help steer the client towards giving us the budget to do it with the Milo. Coincidentally, Steve Giralt is doing an open house demo thing this week with a couple of his robots. Going to attend that and hopefully get some tips that aren't "buy one."

Buying one is not something I would recommend.... Done that, been there for 15 years.

You need team to do good moco. a programer and not just someone that is good at 3d and geometric programming, but a real programer that knows c++ and can combine that with the 3D apps. Then also great 3D animator, but not just a normal great 3d animator, but someone that actually knows pretty much everything about cameras, lenses and understand the physics of things its different to animate a camera in apps than making it for a rig... then that person, if found, needs to be the kind that like being on set, with the stress and traveling kind of life style that comes with... Doing moco is possibly the most stressful thing you can do on a shoot... Simply there can not be errors or delays or people will be seriously disappointed and large sum of others money will be lost. And from experiences... I can only say there is almost always errors and delays . So finding such person that likes it and knows how to do it is difficult. As most CG people like computer screens and a civilised working environment and dont like the kind of stress.

 

[Takor Arrey]

I had no idea the Milo and cyclops were around since the 80s! Also, your work looks great Martin. Good to know I can get solid results without the robots.

Found the other thread, if anyone else is looking. http://www.reduser.net/forum/showth...stem-recommendations&highlight=motion+control

And I made GIFs of the reference movements here, https://imgur.com/a/lwn70o0. It makes sense that moving the object would be easier than moving the camera. Is there a standard way to rig up a surface that moves? I'm thinking I could get some speed rail and try to rig a 4x4 surface to a dana dolly.

It doesn't have to be motion control, I didn't know how to make movements at the macro scale without it being all bumpy and while still keeping everything in focus. Will see what kind of sliders I can get a hold of. Might use a dolly too. Thanks!

Great work Martin'