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[Jeff Coatney]

Jim, thanks for developing a professional camera system that doesn't require a full-time, in-house technician to keep it running. I appreciate that.

 

[Eirik Tyrihjel]

Pro I/O... what'w that? uncompressed RedRAW over fiber?

1,21 Gigawatts, it´s impossible, it can´t be done!
And if it could who would want it?

Seriously though, it will be exciting to see what separates pro from regular in this, and for the Epic-X modules, will that include the pro or the regular, and if it includes the regular, can we upgrade to pro without buying the "regular".

 

[Blair S. Paulsen]

The OVF may cost more than the brain.

The OVF may cost more than the brain.

I hope the Red Team farms out the OVF dev. so it doesn't distract them from other priorities. Jim certainly knows more about running a business than I do but the challenge of building an OVF might be too enticing of a mind suck if it stays in house. I will go back to minding my own business now.

Cheers - #19

 

[Eirik Tyrihjel]

I hope the Red Team farms out the OVF dev. so it doesn't distract them from other priorities. Jim certainly knows more about running a business than I do but the challenge of building an OVF might be too enticing of a mind suck if it stays in house. I will go back to minding my own business now.

Cheers - #19

Amen! (as in I agree, of course I have no objections against giving the OVF people what they want!)

 

[Michael Hastings]

Our OVF will be expensive. There is no getting around it. Lots of engineering and expensive mechanical stuff.

It seems we have customers that want it which is why it is in development. But make no mistake... it will not be cheap. And it will require service unlike an LCD or EVF.

We just have to be real about this...

Jim

Originally Posted by Jeff Coatney
Jim, looks like you could charge at least $15,000 for the OVF and people will gladly pay.

I'm just messin' with you guys. But I do know how much this stuff costs, and the engineering is pretty intense. And like Jim said, you'll have to service the thing often. You can't maintain minute tolerances on a part that's spinning and stopping all the time without it. Maybe Red could outsource the servicing to Techs in the Valley or Hollywood to improve turnaround times? Just a thought.

We REDUSERs have been a bit spoiled.

I've explained to my customers that we can make a very solid aluminum underwater housing for the REDONE, with very reliable seals; excellent dome, macro, etc. optics; and simple focus and iris shift controls for extreme wide angle 8, 10, 12mm lenses (which is what you should be using for most U/W work) for $8K or so. But as soon as you get into mechanical gearing or servo motors and such you can instantly double that price or more. Materials may not be that much, but engineering and general fussiness of the construction, fitting, and maintenance - combined with low volume - just kills you if you ever want it to pay for itself.

So people need to be realistic about where the sweet spots are for different features and options - and realize that as soon as you step away from it things get expensive.

 

[Justin Anderson]

Yes.. starting with full size XLR's

"And there was much rejoicing"

2 or 4 XLRs? My vote would be 2, since I know I'd never need four and I'd like the I/O module to be cheaper.

 

[Roberto Lequeux]

That is why you use both Eirik, plus you wirelessly transmit the image to a large monitor for those not operating. The best of all worlds!

Can you say mirror? :blush: Mayyybe? Sure sounds like moving parts.

Yea, I am curious to know if this is the only way to get it done. And if there would be any detriment at all.

 

[Joseph Ward]

Our OVF will be expensive.

And it will require service unlike an LCD or EVF.

Jim

Will it have to be service once a year or only if need be? How long will the service take usually and how much $ for the service?

 

[M Olsen]

N2T .. Name to Thing ... One of your ideas Jim ?

 

[Daniel García]

Doesnt the D21 already have an OVF? So...I dont see how that can be holding him back from using that system

Yes, that's what I thought, maybe it was a RED specific question.
I know I read it as a direct response in his own forum (which btw is BACK) but I don't remember the specifics.

So I guess if the OVF is a rotating mirror design it won't let "intrepid" DP's use a 360º shutter. Maybe that should be enforced on every model

 

[Mitch Gross]

Funny, just yesterday I explained on CML some of the advantages to having a mechanical shutter on a digital camera. This is the same thing. An optical viewfinder that uses a spinning mirror will eliminate the "jello" effect of a rolling shutter such as on the RED One. Don't know the planned read/write time of the Epic-X, but this can be a nice side benefit.

The spinning mirror for reflex viewing is also a mechanical physical shutter to the gate. When the shutter is covering the sensor, the chip can then activate the electronic shutter, and then it really doesn't matter how long the read/write time is as long as it can happen while the sensor is blocked (a very long time). Think of the read/write time to b equivalent to the time it takes a mechanical shutter's leading edge to pass from one edge of the sensor to the other. Then the whole shutter is blocking the sensor for a very long time and finally the trailing edge of the shutter reveals the sensor from one edge to another for another short time window, after which the sensor is exposed to light for a long period. On a traditional 180° shutter at 24fps, the time the sensor is fully exposed and fully covered is just shy of 1/48 of a second, while the read/write time that the edge of the shutter moves across the frame is measured in microseconds. The Phantom HD GOLD does the read/write in just a microsecond, but it is also designed as an extreme highspeed camera and it costs a pretty penn more than the RED One. The RED One takes much longer, but I cannot recall the time at the moment.

ut anyway, if a mechanical shutter is nvolved, the issue goes away. Wait until the physical shutter has blocked the sensor and then perform the electronic read/write. No more rolling shutter artifacts. This is what the D21 does and it works great. Yes there is the limitation of not being able to use a wide shutter beyond 180° (or whatever it is built to), but as on the D21, it is simple to design a way to park the mirror shutter in the open position (no light to the viewfinder) should one wish to alow more light to reach the sensor.

I could go into the virtues of an OVF for the more traditional reasons (judging lighting & contrast & color), but this is a secondary benefit that should not be overlooked.


Sorry if this isn't clear or rambles. I'm somewhere between 10:30pm and 4:30am thanks to jet lag.

 

[Jeff Coatney]

Will it have to be service once a year or only if need be? How long will the service take usually and how much $ for the service?

Oddly enough it will probably vary from camera to camera as to how often you'd need service. You'd want to have it checked before a big project. As for how long the service will take, it would be impossible to figure out until the prototype is designed or built. Figure at least $80 - $100 per hour. Then there's the issue of throughput - how many cameras can one tech do in a day? Three? Four? My guess is some OVF owners will spend more time without their cameras than with them.

 

[Jeff Coatney]

I hope the Red Team farms out the OVF dev. so it doesn't distract them from other priorities. Jim certainly knows more about running a business than I do but the challenge of building an OVF might be too enticing of a mind suck if it stays in house. I will go back to minding my own business now.

Cheers - #19

I agree.

 

[Jannard]

Sorry to slightly disagree with Mitch. Spinning mirror is 4 microsecs and Epic is 5. One won't help Epic at all. It already matches (virtually) what a spinning mirror does on a film camera for skew.

Jim

 

[Paris Remillard]

Sorry to slightly disagree with Mitch. Spinning mirror is 4 microsecs and Epic is 5. One won't help Epic at all. It already matches (virtually) what a spinning mirror does on a film camera for skew.

Jim

Except that the Epic will, I assume, read vertically and an Arri shutter swipes horizontally. Makes a difference in which skew/compression artifacts are most visible, at least on the Red One. Have you guys ever tested a horizontal read or thought of offering it as an option? I put my Red One on it's side and did whip pans and the compression/expansion was much less visible or unpleasant than the skew that happens when it's right side up. Just my opinion and experience.

How does the 5 microsecond read affect flash artifacts? I know that jello and skew will be less, but it seems that there would still be half frame exposures.

Also, at one point you mentioned the idea of a user selectable option of either a global read or a fast read reset. Is that still a thought or option?

 

[Ryan E. Walters]

OVF - Why I'm excited-

OVF - Why I'm excited-

Woo hoo - FINALLY! I'm excited that there will be an OVF option. (And yes, I am from the "new" generation.) Here is why I favor the OVF on the Red-

1. I can see exactly what the lens is seeing- contrast, sharpness, focus, etc.

2. The Red is a power hungry beast, and It would be great to be able to look through the camera for framing, lighting, etc without having to power up the camera and eat through batteries.

3. The Red takes over a minute to power on - which seems like forever while you are waiting for it. (Especially if there are other crew members waiting as well.) Even though the LCD & EVF come up relatively soon in the boot up sequence, there is a LARGE Red logo with a black square behind it in the middle of the picture. Which essentially makes the benefit of the early access of the LCD / EVF moot IMO.

Thanks for the option Team Red!

 

[Stuart English]

OVF

OVF

Although items 2 and 3 on your list would be much lower / faster on an EPIC and an electronic EVF also allows a 1:1 pixel magnify view for focus check

 

[Robert Horwell]

Although items 2 and 3 on your list would be much lower / faster on an EPIC and an electronic EVF also allows a 1:1 pixel magnify view for focus check

Won't we still have an ext monitor for the focus check?

 

[Steve Gibby]

No OVF for me and my crews - we'll stick with EVF all the way

I respect tradition and understand why certain portions of the motion media industry want to stay with what has worked for them. But depending on how Epic (and Scarlet) are accessorized, they will be used in a broad diversity of genres and field workflows. The added expense, added bulk, lack of 1:1 image magnification focusing capability, inability to see what the sensor is actually seeing, etc. will make an OVF unpractical for many indie budgets, a variety of production genres, etc.

If Epic has a super fast read/write speed I see no reason to go to a spinning mirror and an OVF. Many genres also routinely and quickly need to shoot beyond a 180 degree shutter. A big percentage of users of RED One have been eye focusing the camera very effectively in 4k using the RED EVF and 1:1 image magnification - and I see the same happening with Epic and Scarlet.

I think it is wise for RED to offer an OVF option (also wisely at significant extra cost) for traditionalists - but for a very large percentage of the overall motion media genres, crew compositions, and field production needs of crews, IMO an EVF will be the best choice on Epic (and Scarlet) - and the RED EVF has been very effective on RED One for the largest percentage of genres, budgets, styles, and crew compositions.

I'd suggest that everyone, especially impressionable neophytes, seriously investigate and understand what they're getting themselves into if they decide to go the OVF route. Again, to each their own on the EVF or OVF choice - it makes sense for RED to offer a choice on that.

There's a large part pf me that is a traditionalist - I'm 61 years old, and I've been working in the photography, cinematography, and videography industries for decades - but I'm also un-typically (for my age) progressive in my outlook, equipment choices, and field workflows. I like and trust modern electronics so it will be EVF all the way for me and my crews.

 

[Harry Clark]

And don't forget that film camera eyepiece extensions also offer a zoom in or drop in magnification for a quick focus check...
Hoping that it's a spinning mirror shutter. Not so interesting to me if it's a pellicle, due to light loss.
Cheers,
Harry