Monstro VS V-Raptor…….

[Ethan_Cole]

Ok, I was waiting for someone else to make the threads but let’s discuss….. Monstro owners, would you sell your Monstro to get a V-Raptor why or why not? It has me thinking!

 

[Sergio Perez]

If I had the chance to upgrade definitely yes.

I shoot mainly motorsports and 8K 120fps gives me new high end imagery that I've never captured before. The smaller weight, the Autofocus, the connections , the RF mount and the possibility of adding a canon or pl mount with ND filter slots that are not prohibitively expensive are also game changers for me.

But If I was mainly shooting fiction, narrative work, with a proper crew, time, setup , then I wouldn't be so eager to jump just yet. There's also the sign that there's more to come from DSMC3.

If I had no VV Red at hand I think Raptor is an absolute no brainer vs Monstro. As a Monstro owner, its up to one to see if the new body features and added frame rates are important to you. Monstro's image quality is already industry leading. The Raptor is probably better, but then again , we are at such high level that it really goes down if this is important to the work you do.

 

[Tom Gleeson]

I am not quite sure that Red sees Raptor as a replacement for the Monstro??? While Raptor is as capable as the Monstro in many areas and can outperform it in some the ergonomics seem lacking. We do not yet know how image quality compares to Monstro although we should see lots of good tests soon. I am yet to see how the Raptor can be configured as a full production camera? Will there be a Production module? How do you plug in a Red Viewfinder along with a 7" touch screen? I assume in the future there will be a Ranger version of Raptor for larger more demanding productions? Presently my Monstro is setup in a proper production package and at the moment I just can't see how I can do this with Raptor. If I was buying a new camera right now it would be hard to go past the Raptor at the price(a mere fraction of an Arri LF ) but the roadmap forward is yet to be fully laid out by Red so I will happily keep plugging away with Monstro.

 

[Les Hillis]

I don't have a Monstro, but if I did and I could sell it (and its DSMC2 accessories) for $20K+ and buy a Raptor I would.

The way I see it, I'd be paying the price difference for a totally new (and imo opinion better) camera body, that has the same VV sized sensor as the Monstro, but with better low-light performance, faster sensor readout for less rolling shutter artifacts, higher frame-rates, better thermal and blackshade management, more responsive interface and operation, a newer and arguably better media solution...

Those features alone would make it worth it to me (if I was already spending that kind of money).

It's obviously one of those things that everyone has to apply their own value judgements to though, what's worth something to someone isn't to someone else etc.

Not owning a Monstro though, and not being willing to play in that market segment, I'm interested to see if there will be another new comparatively lower-end camera from RED that has some of those features. It's possible this V-Raptor could be it for the full mid-range as well though, with Komodo beneath it and the Ranger above it.

Will just have to wait and see.

Same with how the extra add-on bits shown in the live-stream and unseen third-party bits and pieces will build out the basic Raptor body for more functionality. Seems like it will be like Komodo for a while, with people working out how to configure their camera setups while RED work to add features via firmware updates.

 

[Michael Lindsay]

I suspect as much as there are some clear advantages of DCT over wavelets - lower power encode and much easier decode … PQ per MB is def not one of the advantages .. so in simple terms with no other factors taken into the mix longer production may be far better off with the Monstro (if sensitive to Data footprint)

Ps I have a Monstro and have ordered a Raptor

 

[Phil Holland]

Keeping my Monstros for now until I can get real down and dirty with Raptor. But that's a lot to due with having shoots coming up as well as certain platforms I work with not setup yet for Raptor. i.e. need to make plates, configure software, and such for helicopter work.

DCT versus Wavelet is interesting. When DSMC and DSMC2 were around as well as the media timeline Wavelet was truly required. Heck. RED One for that matter. Don't think I want to see DCT encoded at those low bitrates. I do think getting rid of the ASIC has helped on the power consumption and price point. I think all of this is towards improving image quality as a whole however. I'm hoping RED can keep HQ, MQ, LQ and add another 1 or 2 compression ratios to satisfy those asking for that. Though I'd probably never use that myself.

What's nice this generation is there isn't too much chatter regarding the form factor of the camera, perhaps we navigated beyond that in modern times or people look at it and get it now. DSMC and DSMC2 certainly freaked some people out with it's new shape and size, then suddenly a lot of cameras looked like that.

Mostly people chatting about the lens mount choice versus having interchangeable on this body, which apparently the Ranger/XL version is getting. I'm actually on the side of wanting that RF Mount to tap into newer compact prime setups, a smidge of interest in autofocus too, but not my main interest. It's about glass and keeping camera size down. But like others I'd say 80-90% of what I shoot is on PL as it should be. I saw a lot early on about the G-Mount not being native, then the live stream happened with the adapter and additional power I/O, not much since. Betting there will be a V-Mount to full size V-Mount solution too.

Right now what's nice is Monstro and Raptor is the sensor size is identical. So glass and formats work the same no matter which is A or B cam.

Major differences I see after hands on experience, not just specs:
- 8K VV 120, and subsequently higher frame rates across the board
- New sensor tech does yield higher image quality, those shadows look really good. Highlights look real nice too.
- New and fixed OLPF that improves critical things when filming point sources, similar to Komodo's improvements, but I suspect even better
- Quieter and more advanced cooling system
- CFx media for higher data rates/frame rates
- +48V Phantom Power on the body
- Camera feels rather responsive. Record, cut, record is much snappier. Playback is pretty quick on.
- 4K SDI out and two of them.
- Both have pogo display mounting
- New side menu panel is certainly something friendlier for camera assistants The dial I know I'll miss though from the Side Kick.
- Monstro does have 2 shortcut keys near the front left record button, but there will be shortcut keys on the new display on that side.
- Magnify is instant and can be left on during record on Raptor, seems to be a big deal to some.
- Wireless 1080p signal is pretty amazing + the newer RED Control app.
- Sensor Calibration is close to half the time, not a huge one for me as it's the difference between 4.5 and 8 minutes, but notable.
- Locking RF Mount is a plus for me allows for behind the lens ND adapters and all sorts of lens adapters as well without too much fuss.
- USB-C has me curious, but I am excited to see what's possible
- New dedicated power switch, same as Komodo and functions like the Jetpacks. That's a big one for me as we need that functionality.
- Micro V-Mount and general form factor keep the camera very small.

The image quality is very, very good. There won't be a question regarding any of that. The question really is how much better is it compared to whatever you are shooting with, RED or otherwise. Noise at 120fps at 8K 1:1 magnification for inside the shop tells me good things. The lifting that up and examining it in RCX as well. Dynamic Range is being quoted as the same 17+ number as Monstro. If that's the case my initial impression is it's a cleaner 17+ than Monstro, so more "usable stops" for people who think that way I imagine.

Color-wise it's very, very good. No questions there.

Looking forward to the firmware with Timelapse and Recording Modes. Also I'm going to keep pressuring RED to include GIOSCOPE. Miss it on Komodo and will scream from the mountains to put it in Raptor.

 

[Christoffer Glans]

Doing a large two-three cam shoot for three months straight and want good storage costs without having to buy a lot of storage? Go with three Monstro cameras. If you really need full-frame 120 fps and really want the improvements in the image and workflow improvements of the camera body, go with Raptor.

If storage costs aren't a problem, go with Raptor.

As I see it, the only real dealbreaker for productions are the storage space/costs. Outside of that, you get better performance out of Raptor. But when it comes to production overall, nowadays it's more of an aesthetic choice for the most part. Want Arri? Sony? Red? Choose a flavor by testing them out, but choosing different cameras within one brand is not that important outside of basic spec differences. I mean, if something doesn't need more than what Komodo gives you, why use bigger and more cumbersome cameras?

If you want to know what to get, either Monstro or Raptor, and you aren't handling hours and hours of footage for a series or film. Then I would say Raptor. It's half the price and gives you better images and better camera body workflow. Simple as that.

And also, you could get a Raptor and get a huge storage system for the price difference between Raptor and Monstro.

 

[Han Vogen]

Looking forward to the firmware with Timelapse and Recording Modes. Also I'm going to keep pressuring RED to include GIOSCOPE. Miss it on Komodo and will scream from the mountains to put it in Raptor.

Could you elaborate on this? What would you use the gyro data for? Do you expect it to be outputted over SDI, recorded as metadata, transmitted via WiFi?

I ask, as this gyro/motion tracking data could be very useful for real time VFX or post image stabilization. Also does the Komodo have a gyro sensor? Are there plans to make this data accessible? It could be game changing.

 

[PatrickFaith]

I 99% of time shoot with Arri pl lenses, i like the new base module for the reasons Phil mentioned but with such large lenses I use really having a small camera base isn't much of a plus. Also i hate pl converters. One of these days i should bite the bullet and get with the program, get a set of cannon lenses ( right now i actually have zero cannon stuff)

 

[Phil Holland]

Could you elaborate on this? What would you use the gyro data for? Do you expect it to be outputted over SDI, recorded as metadata, transmitted via WiFi?

I ask, as this gyro/motion tracking data could be very useful for real time VFX or post image stabilization. Also does the Komodo have a gyro sensor? Are there plans to make this data accessible? It could be game changing.

GIOSCOPE isn't gyro related. It's a very, very, very handy RAW Monitoring tool that exists in DSMC2 cameras that I am on a mission to "suggest" putting it into DSMC3. If you've never used it it gives you a false color gradient of the sensor's RAW data and informs you of what getting too close to the noise floor as well as the more useful feature of rolling the highlights off to a red color to black in zones that are clipping.

Sincerely, one of the best new concepts in the world of professional camera exposure monitoring that allows you to QC tricky areas in from or difficult exposure situations. I've let RED know since Komodo's release that I miss it dearly. Most people though don't know about it as it's an exclusive tool to RED cameras.


Timelapse and Record Modes. These cameras being so small and capable, plus the extreme added benefit of generating a single REDCODE RAW clip after wrapping a timelapse take is crazy valuable. I Directed and DP'd a big 1 month timelapse project years ago and outside of a couple more holy grail like takes we used the footage I shot on RED for everything else (this was Dragon). A few of those I rolled with HDRx as well to keep the wild variable of sun, clouds, and light rays from clipping.

Recording Modes. Mainly discussing things like Continuous versus a Frame Limit like DSMC2 has now. There's a lot of VFX, product, and other types of work where you want to set how many frames or how long the camera rolls for. If you've ever had to shoot 2000 240 frame takes back to back you'd understand


As for Gyro Data, yes, everybody and their brother's cousin wants that in per frame metadata to extract for VFX as well as post stabilization.


Right now I think RED has a laundry list of firmware related things that people want. Some more important or critical than others. HDRx might be a thing of the past as nobody seems to be complaining it's missing. I'm fine with that if that's the course because we have more DR these days compared to MX. But it does have it's usefulness.

I have some other thoughts on HDRx like modes, but I'll save that for off the air for the time being. It's still special use case stuff.

We're in a new era of cameras. Where DSMC2 is today is far from where it started. So much was added through occassionally very frequent firmware updates. Seems like RED is simplifying and refining a lot of this stuff, pushing the fundamentals in there first which is cool. I know some people feeling these cameras might be too complicated, but honestly they haven't been. Most of the professional cameras have some depth and even some of the newer cameras are likely 5X more nuanced. That's got to be a hard thing to balance really as new tech gets injected into the cameras more.

 

[Sergio Perez]

GIOSCOPE isn't gyro related. It's a very, very, very handy RAW Monitoring tool that exists in DSMC2 cameras that I am on a mission to "suggest" putting it into DSMC3. If you've never used it it gives you a false color gradient of the sensor's RAW data and informs you of what getting too close to the noise floor as well as the more useful feature of rolling the highlights off to a red color to black in zones that are clipping.

Sincerely, one of the best new concepts in the world of professional camera exposure monitoring that allows you to QC tricky areas in from or difficult exposure situations. I've let RED know since Komodo's release that I miss it dearly. Most people though don't know about it as it's an exclusive tool to RED cameras.


Timelapse and Record Modes. These cameras being so small and capable, plus the extreme added benefit of generating a single REDCODE RAW clip after wrapping a timelapse take is crazy valuable. I Directed and DP'd a big 1 month timelapse project years ago and outside of a couple more holy grail like takes we used the footage I shot on RED for everything else (this was Dragon). A few of those I rolled with HDRx as well to keep the wild variable of sun, clouds, and light rays from clipping.

Recording Modes. Mainly discussing things like Continuous versus a Frame Limit like DSMC2 has now. There's a lot of VFX, product, and other types of work where you want to set how many frames or how long the camera rolls for. If you've ever had to shoot 2000 240 frame takes back to back you'd understand


As for Gyro Data, yes, everybody and their brother's cousin wants that in per frame metadata to extract for VFX as well as post stabilization.


Right now I think RED has a laundry list of firmware related things that people want. Some more important or critical than others. HDRx might be a thing of the past as nobody seems to be complaining it's missing. I'm fine with that if that's the course because we have more DR these days compared to MX. But it does have it's usefulness.

I have some other thoughts on HDRx like modes, but I'll save that for off the air for the time being. It's still special use case stuff.

We're in a new era of cameras. Where DSMC2 is today is far from where it started. So much was added through occassionally very frequent firmware updates. Seems like RED is simplifying and refining a lot of this stuff, pushing the fundamentals in there first which is cool. I know some people feeling these cameras might be too complicated, but honestly they haven't been. Most of the professional cameras have some depth and even some of the newer cameras are likely 5X more nuanced. That's got to be a hard thing to balance really as new tech gets injected into the cameras more.

Agree on HDR X I still use it today. Very useful for certain shooting scenarios, and something no one else did on the market. Dont make it go away!

 

[Mark K.]

It hardly seems like much of an upgrade over Monstro.

Surely with so few real differences between the two, it would make more sense for most Monstro owners to skip this upgrade cycle - and move on with a later upgrade down the track (when there's more actual improvements on offer) for the financial hit they'll take selling their Monstros)?

 

[william howell]

I think the sensor readout speed, giving 300fps at 4K and 600fps at 2k makes the Raptor a genuine “all in one” package in regards to 99% of what most of us would need to shoot. Any higher frame rates, and your talking about renting a phantom. But… just the frame rate increase at the lower resolutions basically make this a RED Monstro AND a FreeFly Wave (10.5k price tag) all in one package..

Honestly… I would never shoot a Monstro over our Gemini… the 8k VV sensor isn’t that much bigger than the Gemini sensor.. and the cameras shoot the same frame rates at comparable resolutions… but… given what I’ve seen… I definitely would shoot the Raptor over anything else.

I hope Jarred just lays out the entire camera roadmap for us… I’d love to know what they’re planning to do with the Gemini and Komodo in future versions. Besides… having a heads up would allow us to have money ready next time for the stormtrooper sale.

It hardly seems like much of an upgrade over Monstro.

Surely with so few real differences between the two, it would make more sense for most Monstro owners to skip this upgrade cycle - and move on with a later upgrade down the track (when there's more actual improvements on offer) for the financial hit they'll take selling their Monstros)?

 

[Prahlad Strickland]

I believe I saw on the live feed the magenta haze flair and also the red polka dots when flaring are gone.... that's a massive improvement IMO. And long overdue.

 

[Tim Sessler]

I believe I saw on the live feed the magenta haze flair and also the red polka dots when flaring are gone.... that's a massive improvement IMO. And long overdue.

It is definitely is - but on the Highlight/Skintone OLPF is already not an issue on DSMC2. Honestly haven’t even it in many years now…

 

[Tim Sessler]

It hardly seems like much of an upgrade over Monstro.

Surely with so few real differences between the two, it would make more sense for most Monstro owners to skip this upgrade cycle - and move on with a later upgrade down the track (when there's more actual improvements on offer) for the financial hit they'll take selling their Monstros)?

Agreed. As a Monstro owner I just canceled my ST Raptor order. It would be a ‘nice to have’ right now but I’ll wait for what’s to come next and see how the image of the Raptor holds up once we see more footage… I might be wrong but outside the high FPS it primarily seems like a VV sensor that is more accessible. Selling a Monstro now might be really tough

 

[Noah Yuan-Vogel]

What ever happened to the Monstro vs Raptor xyla chart tests they showed in the Livestream q&a? Looking at one pushed to a high iso would be very revealing in comparing the two cameras. Weird that they only shared one at iso800 on a super compressed live stream. Until they give us access to those, the fundamental difference between the cameras will be a bit of a mystery.

 

[Phil Holland]

What ever happened to the Monstro vs Raptor xyla chart tests they showed in the Livestream q&a? Looking at one pushed to a high iso would be very revealing in comparing the two cameras. Weird that they only shared one at iso800 on a super compressed live stream. Until they give us access to those, the fundamental difference between the cameras will be a bit of a mystery.

Probably a day 1 or day 2 test for me. I have my Xyla and the 2 other things I use to look at that. Sensor, OLPF, and IQ (color, draw, etc) related tests are pretty much the first things I dig into on any camera. Likely testing all the OLPFs too.

I did a bunch of workflow tests already, which has been interesting. I'll have to post some stuff next week regarding that.

 

[Noah Yuan-Vogel]

Probably a day 1 or day 2 test for me. I have my Xyla and the 2 other things I use to look at that. Sensor, OLPF, and IQ (color, draw, etc) related tests are pretty much the first things I dig into on any camera. Likely testing all the OLPFs too.

I did a bunch of workflow tests already, which has been interesting. I'll have to post some stuff next week regarding that.

Looking forward to your tests, so I hope they get you your camera asap! Seems weird to me they would tease all these tests on the q&a and not give us access to them after showing them off on the Livestream. I'm not currently planning on buying a raptor but if I was, that would be the first thing I'd want to see before putting any money down. Those tests are the only thing that could possibly change my mind frankly.

 

[Christoffer Glans]

The two biggest image quality/shooting features that you get out of a Raptor over the Monstro are better noise/DR handling of the low end (shadows) and higher framerates. I think people should view Raptor as the high-speed version of Monstro.

But all of this is really not anything strange. I think people, after 16 years of yearly improvements in digital cinema (industry-wide), people have gotten used to yearly "revolutions" in image quality. Anyone should have known that there is a diminishing return to all of this, but it seems that people really don't see this.

If we look at digital cinema as a whole field of technology, what exactly is it that we are looking for? We want better DR, we want more resolution (whatever the argument for it, supersampling or reframing etc.), we want better camera bodies, faster startup times, lower file sizes, lower noise at higher ISO abilities, higher framerates, internal NDs, improvements to color sciences and so on. While we still have lots of things that can improve, we have started entering diminishing returns on some of them. People aren't as excited about 8K as a delivery format as they are for 4K, so shooting 8K for 4K is easier to sell and improve upon than just pushing higher resolutions. Dynamic range is at a level where there's little reason to go higher as our eyes when viewing a final 10000 nits HDR image have trouble seeing more than we can achieve. Color sciences have moved more into flavors than improving on simulating real world colors and sensor sizes has hit a perfect balanced with full format (in terms of lens vs sensor size attributes).

So in terms of digital cinema technology, Raptor couldn't be a revolution like previous cameras. We can't really push further because our human eyes are starting to lose physical ability to see differences. Going further means going past what cinematography is, going further means HFR, 3D, VR, I dunno mental projection directly into the brain, simulation etc.

We've hit a ceiling in which people just shout out for big improvements but there's little to actually improve nowadays so the small increments of improvements we achieve feel like baby steps instead of revolutions. This is just natural and Raptor is a natural progression of cameras.

The thing that I think is going to hit more and more is that we will see reductions in prices for cameras. In ten years, it is entirely possible that we are still shooting 8K just like today, with not much improvements to DR and color science. But what we will have are better batteries, better processors, better storage. Cameras will be much easier to use, have little to no need for fans etc. We will have cameras that cost much less than what we have today. We will have 8K 120fps cameras for $5K maximum, maybe even less. Small DSLR-sized cameras with Raptor specs, without fans or complex workflows, maybe even on shelves of local electronic stores.

For cinematography/photography, we've reached a level where things will start to move into the consumer space without losing high-end specs. This is good. But people need to understand that image and shooting specs won't be a large factor going forward and the differences between Monstro and Raptor are therefore not that big.