Monitor Out color woes

[Philip Powell]

We have an issue with the monitor output. (all of them.) It's colors are way off. (We've confirmed this on several calibrated monitors.) It bares no resemblance to the recorded file, as processed in Red Alert.

The monitor outputs as you can see in the still, have a heavy green/yellow and magenta tint to them. The Video Village/DP is less than thrilled.

However, the recorded R3D file, as processed in Redcine is fine and appears correct. (see other image)

These example stills were shot under a single tungsten source using Redspace (Rec 709 looks similar). We captured the HD-SDI out via our Kona card and then output a still in Redcine of the same frame for comparison. In our testing, while this tinting is less apparent under daylight CT, it is still present.

The camera is en route to Red to be checked out, (Thanks Red!) but wanted to post this here in case anyone else had some insights. We've gone blind, clearing looks, restoring users, system etc, black shading, black restoring, upgrading and downgrading between builds 16 and 17 but nothing seems to change it. Playing with the gain isn't able to compensate for the problem adequately.

An interesting side note, which may or may not be relavent. In Red Alert if I change the color space to Rec 709 and keep the gamma to Redspace it gives a strikingly similar (not identical) look to what we are seeing on the monitor outputs.

It's like it's stuck on a look and won't unstick, or perhaps the video card is simply busted.

 

[David Birdy]

The image from the monitor output can be adjusted via the camera.

Please remember you are not looking at the R3D file from the output of the monitor.
What settings are you using? Do you have a DIT that is familiar with the RED camera?

Are you using Rec 709 ??

PM me I may be able to help !

Dave

 

[jimhare]

Dave is right. The preview out is only that. It is not a fully processed, debayered final.

As Dave says, it's all just meta data so maybe create a color look in camera that better matches what you are seeing in Red Cine.

The good news is that it looks better in post than it did on set. If it were the opposite I imagine you would be much more worried!

 

[Philip Powell]

Thanks for the replies.

We were shooting Redspace. Yes, we've tried extensively compensating for these issues with RGB gains but there is never an adequate solution.

I realize that the monitor out is only a 720p downsample, and if we were talking about subtle overall hue differences I wouldn't be concerned. It's the difference to me between something looking "slightly off" vs. "wrong". Right now, my clients (who are not extremely visually sophisticated) tell me that "the faces look weird".

 

[Trevor Meier]

I've been asking RED about this for quite awhile, with no response (see here: http://www.reduser.net/forum/showthread.php?t=24981)

I've seen this across at least a half-dozen cameras. It seems to be an inconsistency in the color matrix applied in-camera vs. in RedAlert etc.

 

[Stuart English]

Color Cast

Color Cast

An interesting side note, which may or may not be relavent. In Red Alert if I change the color space to Rec 709 and keep the gamma to Redspace it gives a strikingly similar (not identical) look to what we are seeing on the monitor outputs

Sometimes it's those interesting side-notes that provide the best insight to the issue.

That is also the combination that the camera is rendering colors with. So you most likely don't have a hardware issue.

As has been mentioned, the recorded RAW file is not affected by the RGB render settings, the HD-SDI is "just" an HD video assist.

 

[Philip Powell]

Wow...

Wow...

With all due and deep respect Stuart, (I honestly mean that) I sure hope that's not true, or at least can be changed via a firmware update. Could it not be changed to so the camera processed Redspace-Redspace or Camera RGB - Redspace instead of Rec 709 - Redspace

As I said, if it were a subtle overall hue shift issue, not a big deal. But when things looks wrong on the monitor (especially skin tones) clients freak. Like it or not, want it or not, one of the major selling points of this camera is that it gives you best of both worlds, HD viewability via a monitor and film lens characteristics. While on the feature side the competition is film but I suspect for many of us the competition is HD (F900, Varicam) where one would never think of saying "don't worry about what you see on the monitor where the talent looks like they've been drinking." This just drives folks back to HD, or 35.

Honestly though, I would look for better color fidelity on a video tap than this. If the camera is just an a video tap, then why bother with HD-SDI 1080 playback, why not save money and just use SD composite for framing...people that want to use a Red expect a monitor output that looks correct...not perfect...but at least not "wrong".

I just got through with a shoot with client who tolerated the color fidelity issue, but told me that if I didn't get it fixed, they would just shoot HD next time.

 

[Philip Powell]

I've been asking RED about this for quite awhile, with no response (see here: http://www.reduser.net/forum/showthread.php?t=24981)

I've seen this across at least a half-dozen cameras. It seems to be an inconsistency in the color matrix applied in-camera vs. in RedAlert etc.

That's very interesting Trevor. Hopefully we can all shed some light on the issue and figure out a solution.

I went out today and tested another local Red under similar conditions (one 32K Light source on CU of face.) and got the same results visual results, heavy magenta cast on lips, ears, nose.

Is it possible to create a setting in camera that would allow you to adjust the color matrix to make things match, relative to how you plan to process things in Redcine? (I realize I have no idea if what I'm asking is possible or not.)

At least judging by my limited skin tone tests, the combination of in camera Rec 709-Respace, seems less than ideal. What's the thinking there? I suppose someone could process their footage using those settings and thus would want that combination in camera for monitoring purposes, but my guess would be those would be the rare birds.

As I said before, I'm not looking for perfect color fidelity, just something that doesn't fall into the catagory of what I would say looks "wrong" to my clients eyes and causes them to freak. In my world at least, magenta lips, ears, noses falls into that zone.

 

[Michael Lindsay]

...Could it not be changed to so the camera processed Redspace-Redspace or Camera RGB - Redspace instead of Rec 709 - Redspace

I'm very happy to be wrong but Rec 709 matrix and anything gamma is just strange.. Blues become purple, greens go crazy if there is a hint of blue in them...

I've posted about this before and am lucky that on my red shoots I'm not challenged on this.. (I have on one made the monitors BW)

Please allow a non-rec 709 matric for camera out..

Anyone doubt this go shoot a colour chart..

I'm willing to learn why I'm wrong????

kind regards

Michael L

 

[Harry Clark]

Sorry, just noticed this thread.
I've chimed in on other related threads, like the one below...
http://www.reduser.net/forum/showthread.php?t=26171
I think that the "quick and dirty" debayering of the camera's image yields a somewhat subpar image. I have had the exact same magenta/yellow/green skin tone issue on almost every job involving a face, and I've had shadows go bright blue, uniform white areas appear with a bluish cast, all kinds of freakiness... white balance inaccuracies, NONE of which appears on the "real" file when rendered. Unfortunatley, it's an issue with camera preview. My trick is to bring the chroma down a couple of ticks in the camera menu. That usually makes the issue harder for most folks to spot (seasoned DITs will periodically "pop" the color up way high on broadcast HD jobs to spot any color issues that are hidden at normal chroma levels)
Why this moderately subpar performance? I imagine that having to back into a shockingly low price point that they already established meant that Red had to skimp a bit on the hardware here and there, and therefore would not expect this issue to go away on the Red One. However, the team is always tweaking and improving firmware, so maybe they'll pull a small rabbit out of the hat here. I'm hopeful that the higher price point of Epic will allow this and other small issues to be dealt with going forward.
Yes, it's a pain. But explaining the issue carefully to the folks at video village and offering a look at a nice TIFF from RedAlert! usually makes the complaints go away. Most experienced agency and client types are used to seeing the output of a video tap on a film camera, so that analogy helps explain that what you see is "not quite" what you get. In my experience, a pain in the neck; but a minor one.
Cheers,
Harry

 

[Chris Parker]

i have this same issue. i was at a camera test/wardrobe/set test last week for a CBS pilot. the art director put in a variety of samples of colors for the set walls and the director/art director/dp were trying to pick the one they liked best. only problem was, if they picked through the monitor, they would have been very wrong about what they were seeing.

i understand (as does the DP) that it is a glorified 'video tap' but that did not stop the director from complaining later on that 'the skin looks magenta' or 'the walls look too green'. my solution is to usually play with the gain a bit, and just turn down the overall saturation on the camera to soften the weird colors coming out.

sure would be nice to have 'Camera RGB' and 'Rec 709' coming out of the video tap though.

 

[Paul Leeming]

Just curious but whilst I've seen this issue a couple of times too on set, has anyone verified the chip chart and other test patterns Red puts out to see if they match the known values on a waveform monitor?

Cheers,

Paul

 

[Michael Lindsay]

It would be great to know if this is an open issue being looked into by Red. I say this as I think it is pretty pointless spending any real money on monitoring (also the really nice lut capacity that Red has is worthless to me as it sits on top of colour crazyness)..

I need another monitor and I think I will just go Tvlogic rather than anything more exacting.
If it will never change (or my cameras, or my eyes, are wrong) it would be good to know.

One thing that confuses me is not many people mention it? When it looks really obvious ... ??

kind regards

Michael Lindsay

 

[Evin Grant]

I use a couple of cheap Sony monitors with Blackmagic HD-Link boxes. There is no point in using a high quality calibrated broadcast monitor on the Red output.

I concur that turning the cameras saturation down to .8 helps a bunch with this.

 

[Chris Parker]

0.8 seems to be the sweet spot for me too....

 

[Nick Gardner]

I screw with the phase and chroma on my panasonic monitors till the image looks like I think it should, and it usually matches up pretty well with the rendered r3ds.

Nick

 

[Tom Turley]

Agreed with all of the above. Like many things with this camera, I think there are a lot of us who are simply working around these problems, though it is good to see it aired publicly. My response is, as wise people have already mentioned:

Make people (DOP/CLIENT/PRODUCER/DIRECTOR) aware that What You See is NOT What You Get

Reduce Chroma on the monitor until the crazy greens and purples calm down to something more acceptable

Push people towards looking at RAW in camera - assigning RAW to a button to toggle between viewing spaces.

Push people towards looking at clips in RedCine for a 'true' image, and then playing with the image until they start to get excited about being able to preview grades on set.

Tom Turley
www.filmtom.com

 

[Roberto Lequeux]

Most experienced agency and client types are used to seeing the output of a video tap on a film camera, so that analogy helps explain that what you see is "not quite" what you get. In my experience, a pain in the neck; but a minor one.
Cheers,
Harry

Sounds like you really worked out the best angle.
I really hope this is "fixed" on DSMC for all Red owners having to deal with this.

All of this go away when using the RAW monitoring option right?

 

[Harry Clark]

USlatin,
It's much easier to take when looking at the so-called "RAW" but I think the best approach is still shoot a quick bit and slap the card into the laptop and correct.
Cheers,
Harry

 

[Roberto Lequeux]

Yea, but since I grade my own (small project) stuff I wouldn't mind a real RAW in the least bit. I talked with a DoP in Minneapolis who was setting out to create a preset on his Panasonics to use the RAW mode and get something for the clients for it. We only discussed it briefly so I am not 100% on that, but if the RAW mode is a real RAW then it sounds like the way to go. Even if it is only a bit better than the other modes... just increase the contrast a bunch, so on so forth, till you have something you really like... especially if you can save a profile on your monitor!

I would create my own profile, that way I know what I did in it, and stick to RAW 95% of the time.

Doesn't that sound good?