Modular Dragon OLPF sneak peak

[Alex Bros]

I love the possibilities of having all kinds of OLPF options. It's like having access to different film stocks. Where recently we thought of individual digital camera systems as having/being their own"look" or "stock" this opens up all kinds of flexibility within one camera system. If you guys do this right, it can be f***ing awesome. Especially for the "owner/operator" like myself.
I just got my Dragon Email and I can't decide which OLPF I want. Having a choice/options is not really a bad problem to have.

 

[charles lim yi yong]

ok this is crazy idea . can't RED make a OLFP which can mechanically be swapped internally?

 

[Bob Gundu]

ok this is crazy idea . can't RED make a OLFP which can mechanically be swapped internally?

Sounds like it would be a much larger camera.

 

[Wayne Morellini]

ok this is crazy idea . can't RED make a OLFP which can mechanically be swapped internally?

We talked about that. and how to keep the camera small, but people often can't see the reality. It is like speaking quantum mathematics to me.

 

[Bohdan Klos]

We talked about that. and how to keep the camera small, but people often can't see the reality. It is like speaking quantum mathematics to me.

Wayne I don't think that is fair on people.

Your "We think, you do" motto is similar to another famous motto ....we "talk the talk" you "walk the walk".


I`m all for Red improving but we got to be realistic about pie in the sky plans.

 

[charles lim yi yong]

Wouldn't it be just like those cameras with selectable internal ND system (Sony f55)

 

[Wayne Morellini]

Wayne I don't think that is fair on people.

Your "We think, you do" motto is similar to another famous motto ....we "talk the talk" you "walk the walk".


I`m all for Red improving but we got to be realistic about pie in the sky plans.

Its completely fair and realistic Bohdan, virtually none have good design skill, even those with design skills often don't have good judgement in this life. I walk around daily and just can hardly believe the bad engineering decisions I see (then I do live in a backwater city that attracts low class professionals, but even among the top world class professionals I know their judgment is lacking, but maybe not their capacity (quantity over quality, tends not to make best products). People are rather happy to throw red herrings in front of reality that don't make sense as expressions of their knowledge of themselves, is obstructive really unhelpful ways ignorantly rather than have a proper discussion in a progressive way to see what is actually possible, the actual reality, instead of opinion.

My moto is more we figure out for your benefit so you can walk better. Unfortunately I've spent the time refining objective solutions, and you will notice I always qualify in statements if there is any area of doubt. Now going backwards, it has been common to have internal filter systems in some camera types, I qualified how to do a smaller flat one, how could that then be pie in the sky, saying it will be too big because of seeing big ones, is more closer to pie in the sky in thinking the a big filter opinion is the only way it could be. It is not a matter of opinion, but a matter of working out how, and I usually work out everything I say to the best of my knowledge. It is not about how it can't be done, but how it can be done.

I regularly deal with cutting edge technology.

Love you all. Let's drop the old dead horse, my suggestions based on a treasure trove of knowledge is on record.

 

[Lee Saxon]

What I think is really ironic is the new posts cropping up on CML about what a "bad idea" swappable OLPF filters is - and what "chaos" it will cause.

I remember when a cinematographer got to choose his/her film stock, lenses, filters, camera, camera vendor, lab, etc. etc. - today ... many cinematographers only get to choose the lenses - as they are told what camera system will be used on the job, etc. etc. etc.

They complain that their choices are being taken away ... now they seem to complain when they get more choices.

Go figure.

Personally, I think it's insane to sugget that RED should not give cinematographers more choices. Sure it might be new and different - and sure - there will be a ton of mis-information and some confusion - but I have a hard time with people wanting things to be more simple and limited.

There are PLENTY of simple, limited camera systems out there. RED does NOT need to be one.

The problem isn't that choices are bad, it's how to implement them:

Wouldn't it be just like those cameras with selectable internal ND system (Sony f55)

NDs have basically no alignment requirements. Hell, you can just hold it up in front of the lens and be fine as long as you don't angle it so that it picks up glare.

The sensor filter stack has to be extremely precisely parallel to the sensor or your image quality is basically destroyed.

 

[Wayne Morellini]

Strictly you could probably get a olpf effect the same way by sticking a filter with a slight high resolution dispersion in front of the lens, not that I'm saying it is anywhere near as good as a custom aligned (which is one reason I'm surprised that it is going swappable) and as said, glare issues. But their are small auto alignment techniques that can be used, that can precisely push filter in a internal stack, mount or sensor, into alignment. Ideally you want a system that pushes the light into a pad away from the non pad zones, like what Sony did, to emulate closer to a 100% fillfactor, but then you get some color shifting that may have to be calculated for (how much I can't say). I would luv to hear the words 100%FF and BSI instead .

Jarred, are we expecting to seen that 2000% quantum efficiency technology on Red sensors for low light? An exclusive license on that would be really great. How much color constancy has the Dragon got throughout its range, is there a chart?

Thanks

 

[Nikhil Kamkolkar]

There are PLENTY of simple, limited camera systems out there. RED does NOT need to be one.

This. With that comment, this thread could have been closed.

As far as the points being made about software work that'll have to go along with swappable OLPFs, well… yeah!! That's the new world. SW/HW combos that deliver the impossible that neither could deliver on its own!! That's WHY this is a REVOLUTIONARY path and not an EVOLUTIONARY one. And exactly why it'll have pitfalls, and pain, and many times, intense, extreme JOY at getting that image you would not have gotten any other way.

I'm truly excited about RED doing these things. Its really exciting to see a company taking such chances. I'm very aware RED may fail (and infact, has failed) along the way, but that's the price to pay for not staying safe. And mark my words, other camera companies are watching closely and will learn and implement, maybe even better than RED as they can avoid the pitfalls, but never forget RED started it.

That said, all the people raising objections, concerns, issues SHOULD be, and in my mind, are welcome. They'll add valuable things to consider. They don't necessarily have to be followed, but always heard.

 

[Juan D Salazar]

Sweet guys

 

[Björn Benckert]

This. With that comment, this thread could have been closed.

As far as the points being made about software work that'll have to go along with swappable OLPFs, well… yeah!! That's the new world. SW/HW combos that deliver the impossible that neither could deliver on its own!! That's WHY this is a REVOLUTIONARY path and not an EVOLUTIONARY one. And exactly why it'll have pitfalls, and pain, and many times, intense, extreme JOY at getting that image you would not have gotten any other way.

I'm truly excited about RED doing these things. Its really exciting to see a company taking such chances. I'm very aware RED may fail (and infact, has failed) along the way, but that's the price to pay for not staying safe. And mark my words, other camera companies are watching closely and will learn and implement, maybe even better than RED as they can avoid the pitfalls, but never forget RED started it.

That said, all the people raising objections, concerns, issues SHOULD be, and in my mind, are welcome. They'll add valuable things to consider. They don't necessarily have to be followed, but always heard.

Sony had swappable OLPF's for a while.... just saying.

 

[Ross Isaacs]

I hope after all the research that went into the problems we are having in the underwater environment that there will be a special OLPF.

 

[Les Dittert]

The sensor filter stack has to be extremely precisely parallel to the sensor or your image quality is basically destroyed.

Nope. The color filter array is precisely deposited on the sensor silicon photosites. The OLPF is several mm above that, in the case of MX in a rubber boot, not very precise .

 

[Björn Benckert]

I hope after all the research that went into the problems we are having in the underwater environment that there will be a special OLPF.

but what would that be, I thought you bubble guys where using different colored filters for different depths and water conditions, no? What would the optimal UW olpf actually be?

So is it not a behind lens filter tray what you guys are after... or something like a colortunable motion mount?

 

[Wayne Morellini]

Sony had swappable OLPF's for a while.... just saying.

Swappable is just incremental rather than revolutionary.

Nope. The color filter array is precisely deposited on the sensor silicon photosites. The OLPF is several mm above that, in the case of MX in a rubber boot, not very precise .

Agreed Les, I wonder why the BMD pocket does have one. Still, a special micro-lensing array on the sensor to raise fill factor, could possibly be made to spread light do do an olpf function. But I think it is a waste, just another complexity sport to get in front of the real job, making great footage. It is a waste, what we need is a 100% fillfactor bsi with a minimal Olpf, would probably give the best all around results.

 

[Ross Isaacs]

but what would that be, I thought you bubble guys where using different colored filters for different depths and water conditions, no? What would the optimal UW olpf actually be?

So is it not a behind lens filter tray what you guys are after... or something like a colortunable motion mount?

I believe what you say would be brilliant although a filter which does something like the old underwater CY filters for average conditions might also be useful.

 

[Nikhil Kamkolkar]

Sony had swappable OLPF's for a while.... just saying.

Not speaking of swappable OLPFs, but about HW/SW combos that'll deliver things beyond our current state of affairs. RED is not divulging its roadmap anymore, but I'm pretty certain (hopeful?), there's things cooking.

 

[Michael Romano]

Sounds good for owner operators, sounds like a nightmare if I was going to order a camera at a rental house in Timbuktu...

Thinking the same. I can't say I'd want rental users doing this to our bodies in the field. You know some dope will want to use his personal one from another body as well. Scratched sensors on the horizon.

 

[Michael Romano]

And I'm also a bit worried that these olpf's will be like filters, in other words it does not matter how many you buy... the rental clients will always ask for the one you do not have.

Of course.