Modular Dragon OLPF sneak peak

[Brian Boyer]

sorry to keep bringing this up...but tobias straka posted another dragon raw file in this thread
The ones who have loved - Short shot on DRAGON
perfect example of what i use my camera for, so obviously i downloaded.....
at iso 400 exposed to protect that hotspot on the shoulder (i might have opened up just a tad, but histogram still looks ok)....there is a ton of noise all over...especially in the skin...i am not even talking about the mush of hair or the "light trap" area of where the hair meets the skin on her cheek/neck....i just don't have that kind of noise on my epic....and definitely not at 400....this is not red specs....this is color noise....
it does not seem to be user error to me? i agree that this is probably not an issue for 4k delivery or 2k.....but i need stills out of this camera and they have to be better then epic...this file is not printable larger then maybe 5x7....after that the noise would start to show....and please no mention of NR...my pic just does not have this kind of noise....the light trap areas go bad at about 1000 iso with my epic....
i am not trying to stir something here....i just would like to know if this is considered normal (since it goes pretty much hand in hand with my other dragon findings of raw files downloaded here)? will there be a olpf to take care of this?

Remember this? http://red.cachefly.net/RED-VOGUE.pdf

It was shot on Epic and appeared in Vogue magazine. It's not the cleanest picture ever taken but still looks good and you don't notice the noise (texture) too much unless you go looking for it. Is this amount of noise acceptable to you?

 

[David Battistella]

I think this will be more of a pre shoot an prep thing on larger sets than a change on the fly thing, unless they incorporate a lever or quick release system for the OLPF that will have it switched out in seconds, like a lens change.

as an example, "ok, let's swap to the xyz OLPF for the next shot"

Or

 

[Nawaf Alsabhan]

That said.. we already plan on making one that lands somewhere in the middle. And I really do like the Low-Con option that people are discussing, but that is going to take some time.

The options really start to open up as we open this option up to both individuals like John Marchant that have their own unique take as well as to the big filter companies to make modules as they may.

That's great to hear, I can't wait!

 

[Bohdan Klos]

I`m surprised to hear some people say there is too much pixel peeping recently.


There has ALWAYS been pixel peeping on RU. I love reading Phil Hollands tests which cover many areas. Unless I`m mistaken they delved into the pixel peeping area , and were very interesting for it. Many other users discuss interesting topics which come under the banner of pixel peeping and did that well before the OLPF issue. I`m sure it will go on.


A camera that is founded and promoted on the quality of its pixels should be peeped at.

 

[Wayne Morellini]

I think this will be more of a pre shoot an prep thing on larger sets than a change on the fly thing, unless they incorporate a lever or quick release system for the OLPF that will have it switched out in seconds, like a lens change.

as an example, "ok, let's swap to the xyz OLPF for the next shot"

Or

John, sh.., David, is that the inside of a Darlek, or the beast?

This is what I've been talking about for years, reducing the size and complexity of equipment (with increased ease of quality results). But we have been failing at desperately. Until people can just pick up a camera and get excellent results, so that professionals can pickup and achieve exemplary results we are missing the point. We should not need 100 million to make an engaging good movie. The time is coming, we are working towards leading edge processing that eventually will not only give better results from footage, and make special effects cheap, but can eliminate the need for the physical camera. Any company planning to be here for a long time, has to work towards this.

The eventual ambition is not to own the camera industry but control the holo stage (holodeck) of filming.

 

[Wayne Morellini]

There are a number of separate people here that combined, have the expertise to work towards this.

 

[paul schefz]

Remember this? http://red.cachefly.net/RED-VOGUE.pdf

It was shot on Epic and appeared in Vogue magazine. It's not the cleanest picture ever taken but still looks good and you don't notice the noise (texture) too much unless you go looking for it. Is this amount of noise acceptable to you?

you could not have made a better point.....at this point i have not seen a dragon raw file that might be usable in a glamor ad like that one....i have no problem with my epic files and use them like this all the time....and that is why i was so excited bout dragon....6k means the ability to take a vertical 11x14 crop out of the horizontal 6k file....but with the noise so dominant pretty much everywhere, epic MX still looks like the better option to me....
i am looking at this file (of the girl in the field) on a 24" 4k monitor in rcx (full and fit both sides) and i see color noise everywhere, especially in her skin and in the darker areas it just turns to color mush that i haven't seen since the early days of my digital shooting in the 90s.....my epic mx does not do that....
maybe that is pixel peeping but again, one of the things that makes the epic mx so great is that i can look at the files at 200% and blow them up 400, 500% and there is no noise (when shot at lower 250, 320, maybe 400 iso) and the structure allows for great interpolation, so the large prints look amazing....
i never use noise reduction, haven't found anything that really makes a print (not moving image!) better....on the contrary, i usually add grain in post to give things a little more texture....color noise is not texture to me....

again: maybe this all comes down to personal taste and that obviously is fair and valid....i would really like to hear an official red answer to the question is that kind of look, texture, noise (whatever you want to call it, i don't want to attach a negative term) is what is to be expected from the upgrade to dragon....the file seems to be properly shot and exposed so the answer should be pretty straightforward....there is really no need to keep going back and forth here about what either of us thinks looks good or acceptable.....but i would like to see where red sets the bar....
and if this is NOT what dragon should look like, i would love to see what is CAN look like....not jpeg, not youtube, not vimeo....a raw file similar to the one above, or actually ANY raw file that shows the same lack of any (again, no negatives here) noise, look, texture, grain as my MX files do at lower iso....

 

[David Battistella]

There are a number of separate people here that combined, have the expertise to work towards this.

Totally agree! Taking the "film" out of filmmaking is exactly what digital was supposed to help move us toward avoiding. Huge rigs, etc. just look at that kflect thread for innovative, lighting that requires looking at things a bit differently, but ends up being more efficient.

Battistella

 

[Jan Reiff]

Paul, one simple question:

if you want to use ONE still for print ... why not ADD ?? this is VERY clean then. and for print, ... it´s around 25 seconds with my mac pro for one still, some machines may even be faster ...

 

[Phil Holland]

I`m surprised to hear some people say there is too much pixel peeping recently.

There has ALWAYS been pixel peeping on RU. I love reading Phil Hollands tests which cover many areas. Unless I`m mistaken they delved into the pixel peeping area , and were very interesting for it. Many other users discuss interesting topics which come under the banner of pixel peeping and did that well before the OLPF issue. I`m sure it will go on.

A camera that is founded and promoted on the quality of its pixels should be peeped at.

I'm fine with the pixel peeping per say, heck much of my life seems to be exactly that. And I am looking just as closely at other camera systems in comparison often. The big thing for me is delivery. For print, projection, and screen use the "red specks" are not a huge issue. However, I understand that one mans reality is another mans hell. So I'm cool with whatever.

What is nice is the solution Red came up with. Which is coming real soon. And it even impressed/surprised me a bit in terms of the solution as it does more than just remove the the specks. The D.E.B. adaptive debayer has impressive effects on individual color channels and has very real implications towards VFX related imaging as well as general image quality. Again, this was more than expected. Promptly people were upset and/or happy about D.E.B. I can't be upset about something that makes my images better for free and doesn't re-invent the wheel in terms of workflow.

 

[Maz Mawlawi]

This is exciting news.....I just hope it doesn't cost an arm and a leg for those OLPF...after all we were originally promised more dynamic range and cleaner than MX noise up to ISO 2000 (2000 was supposed to be the new 800). It obvious that is no longer possible and I have accepted that and I am ok with the interchangeable OLPF solution...I just hope it's priced sensibly.

 

[Nook Kim]

Again, this was more than expected. Promptly people were upset and/or happy about D.E.B. I can't be upset about something that makes my images better for free and doesn't re-invent the wheel in terms of workflow.

Haha Phil, I have much respect for what you do and how much you contribute in this community. However, I have a problem understanding when you say "free" in your sentence like that. You know, we are upgrading our equipment to the next gen so a certain amount of performance boost is expected from customers and it's not "free" to be exact. Also, I can't just be happy about DEB because it complicates the workflow of Reds' which is not really simple for the majority of professional filmmakers already.

Just to add to my rant, I don't have any problem working with any of my Red gears becauss I come and read what's changing here on Reduser EVERYDAY. Do you really expect the same from regular shooters?

FYI, I am writing this FOR Red to be better.

Cheers.

 

[John Marchant]

How does DEB complicate things? One button and due to be part of the SDK... Red could have done this behind the scenes without even telling us if they were a different kind of company...

 

[Phil Holland]

What John said.

We live in an era where some manufacturers charge us for firmware updates that add features to the camera for features that are already in the camera. Red luckily doesn't believe in that. And also luckily they are focused on making things better all the time. That's what I see though. That's why I've invested my dough into this system.

 

[David Battistella]

ADD, DEB, OLPF

All of these things ENHANCE the already great image coming off the sensor.

ADD - Pulling stills? Use it.
DEB - Need to clean up a bit of noise - Turn it on (or not)
OLPF - Soon to be more creative choices.

I mean, really, people can sit in the wings and call these things bandaids, but they are not, they are all tools in your creative toolset. RED is listening, acting and providing people with choices.

Now what? The next thing people are coming up with is that they did not get it right in the first place?

Everything is right about how they interact with customers and how this went down. And.

About how they are making the most flexible and versatile camera around.

Double system
Single system
High speed Camera
Timelapse Camera

The whole OLPF thing is going to blow the doors off what you can do creatively because they are handing image control over to DOP's at the pre sensor filtration level.
LowLIght
IR

If you are a DP who wants to get their hands dirty and you want to cook-a-look, red is going to make it that much easier for you to control that both in the lens and in post with the tools they are offering.

Still, people bitch.

Me, I'm smiling.


Battistella

 

[Mark Wilkinson]

The whole OLPF thing is going to blow the doors off what you can do creatively because they are handing image control over to DOP's at the pre sensor filtration level.
LowLIght
IR

Battistella

I think David's on to something here. Shooting old glass is a staple of finding new looks - custom OLPF filters might become the next kickstarter craze.

 

[Jan Reiff]

ADD, DEB, OLPF

All of these things ENHANCE the already great image coming off the sensor.

ADD - Pulling stills? Use it.
DEB - Need to clean up a bit of noise - Turn it on (or not)
OLPF - Soon to be more creative choices.

I mean, really, people can sit in the wings and call these things bandaids, but they are not, they are all tools in your creative toolset. RED is listening, acting and providing people with choices.

Now what? The next thing people are coming up with is that they did not get it right in the first place?

Everything is right about how they interact with customers and how this went down. And.

About how they are making the most flexible and versatile camera around.

Double system
Single system
High speed Camera
Timelapse Camera

The whole OLPF thing is going to blow the doors off what you can do creatively because they are handing image control over to DOP's at the pre sensor filtration level.
LowLIght
IR

If you are a DP who wants to get their hands dirty and you want to cook-a-look, red is going to make it that much easier for you to control that both in the lens and in post with the tools they are offering.

Still, people bitch.

Me, I'm smiling.


Battistella

for me, even ADD is not an issue to use in motion. if you have some minutes footage to push, and you do this with the edited footage (so not with hours of material) - one night of render (up to your workstation of course) and you get very clean footage up to higher ISO, especially the use of DEB on and ADD is the luxury wellness day/night spa for your work. i never saw cleaner high resolution footage at 4K as with this use of tools - because ADD has no negative effect on detail and sharpness.

 

[David Battistella]

for me, even ADD is not an issue to use in motion. if you have some minutes footage to push, and you do this with the edited footage (so not with hours of material) - one night of render (up to your workstation of course) and you get very clean footage up to higher ISO, especially the use of DEB on and ADD is the luxury wellness day/night spa for your work. i never saw cleaner high resolution footage at 4K as with this use of tools - because ADD has no negative effect on detail and sharpness.

See, take a tool really sorta designed for stills and apply it to motion. Perfect. I like that kind of evolution. Same will happen with OLPF. Starts as a way to offer low light sensitivity, turns into a world of new options for people who make images (if it indeed goes that way).

I do believe that RED need to really "innovate" in the replacement OLPF system. Four screws just aint going to cut it and four little screws could "limit" the amount people want to use this. If they can make this work perfectly and create a Quick release mechanism that places the OLPF into the correct position for back focus consistently, then the "swap" part becomes a no brainer.

If the swap is fiddling with four small screws every time, then it becomes a "change it during a break thing".

I don't want it to replace a matte box, but I sure would love to do a quick swap between sundown and a full night shoot (as a quick example). Four screws might make me want to just stick with what I got.

Battistella

 

[Bohdan Klos]

When a middle OLPF is created that technically fits between the first release OLPF and second OLPF I would order that with the camera, and it would stay in place probably for all of the cameras life. I get the feeling choosing one OLPF and sticking with it will be common for many productions. Understandably less common for people who want to experiment.


I`m sure if the 3rd OLPF sits between the 2 we have just now it will be very very popular and common. I would bet if Red was to choose an single OLPF to come as standard this 3rd OLPF would likely be their choice.

 

[paul schefz]

for me, even ADD is not an issue to use in motion. if you have some minutes footage to push, and you do this with the edited footage (so not with hours of material) - one night of render (up to your workstation of course) and you get very clean footage up to higher ISO, especially the use of DEB on and ADD is the luxury wellness day/night spa for your work. i never saw cleaner high resolution footage at 4K as with this use of tools - because ADD has no negative effect on detail and sharpness.

ADD and DEB are not options since i pull my stills from resolve or fcpx....
and regardless i need neither with MX right now?
i have no problem at all if people want to go that way....that is not the point...i would like to know red's official position on this....if the file provided is in fact what dragon should look like....
i think that is a fair question