Modular Dragon OLPF sneak peak

[Phil Holland]

Hey Jarred,

Is it possible to improve the Old OLPF so that it doesn't exhibit as you said "a reflected IR flare or magenta glow around bright sources inside or on the edge of Frame in different strengths depending on the light, the angle of reflection, lens etc."

(http://www.reduser.net/forum/showthread.php?111400-Dragon-Flare&highlight=reflected+flare)

If there's going to be the option to purchase the Old OLPF for Low-light situations in addition to the current Dragon OLPF for better highlight roll off / color etc, is it possible to make some improvements to the Old OLPF addressing the above issue?

I understand they'll be trade offs between the two, but maybe there's some middle ground since that could include that fix?

Eli, that's what this thread is all about. You will be able to have a user replaceable OLPF. You can choose between the new and old OLPF as well as a few other different types.

The improvement on the various things that the old OLPF didn't do well is the new OLPF. The new OLPF is what comes standard in Dragons shipping today.

 

[Nick Morrison]

Eli, that's what this thread is all about. You will be able to have a user replaceable OLPF. You can choose between the new and old OLPF as well as a few other different types.

The improvement on the various things that the old OLPF didn't do well is the new OLPF. The new OLPF is what comes standard in Dragons shipping today.

True, but I think there seems to be growign curiosity if a THIRD OLPF could be made...one that takes advantages of all the color advancements of the NEW OLPF, but optimized more for lowlight (as the OLD OLPF had been)...at expense of some highlights.

I'm not saying it's possible, but its understandable many would want to ask for "best of both worlds" if you will.

I'm personally looking forward to shooting with the NEW OLPF (which appears to be optimized for best Dragon Colors, etc). However having a lowlight alternative with comparable (but not equal) color rendition could be fantastic also.

 

[David Battistella]

I think people really underestimate the science behind creating a OLPF and tuning it to a specific sensor. That little piece of glass has many micro coatings that do a lot of work in the optical path.

If it was easy to "split the difference" I'm pretty sure it would just be done. RED has probably tested so many OLPF combos it would make our heads spin.

To me, this NEW one which gets rid of really ugly flares adds a stop in the highlights and creates a really accurate color fidelity is a huge step forward on dragon over what MX or OLD OLPF can do. It's just cleaner in way more situations, tungsten light is pretty perfect for example. So red attacked many of the primary complains and criticisms with MX, red dots on light sources, ugly flares, bad skin tones, tungsten performance, and they put that in the new sensor.

the trade off, low end red dot noise pattern, which is now fixed in software and could be dealt with in firmware as well.

It's a tough crowd here for sure, but I don't think the noise should outweigh the good that has happened. This sensor and OLPF is much improved over the old. I never pushed the MX past800 ISO much, but I do find I can stretch things out to 2000iso now and when needed add software help if I went further.

As for promises, etc. I like Walter Payton's quote on that one, "tomorrow is promised to no one" I recall this quote whenever I feel I need to manage expectations and adjust my trust meter.

Battistella

 

[Eli Goldstein]

Yes, Nick put it best. My thinking is if you're going to sell a different OLPF for low light situations, maybe it's not going to have incredible highlight rolloff but hopefully it could overcome the strange magenta glow before it was sold as another option.

I don't know if that's possible, but that's why I'm asking.

 

[Wayne Morellini]

my original idea was magnets but the engineers were VERY quick to rattle off a dozen reasons why that was a horrible idea... most of them already listed by you guys here

Should see what those magnetic mounted filters did to cheap stills cameras.

Jarred, If I knew the correct design of the cavity I could possibly work out a screwless design that could take seconds.

Jarred any dates we should watch out for?

Thanks

Also Raises hand....

Out of curiosity.... What if you shot with no OLPF? What would happen?

You would end up with a better BMD!

 

[Wayne Morellini]

Also Raises hand....

Out of curiosity.... What if you shot with no OLPF? What would happen?

my original idea was magnets but the engineers were VERY quick to rattle off a dozen reasons why that was a horrible idea... most of them already listed by you guys here

Yes, Nick put it best. My thinking is if you're going to sell a different OLPF for low light situations, maybe it's not going to have incredible highlight rolloff but hopefully it could overcome the strange magenta glow before it was sold as another option.

I don't know if that's possible, but that's why I'm asking.

I hate to say this, because I don't know what the current camera design can accommodate. But if you want many different OLPF's and others, you could have a rotatable carousel, or slide, to change between them. Arri might laugh at first, until they realise how behind they are.

Still, I'm more interested in 100 fill factor on a layered sensor, or Bayer (or so called random that is really a better regular pattern). I've also come up with a new sensor design I have to research to see if it is viable, but if it is it will be revolutionary. I know people with access to fab runs, if only I had the money. Actual proof of concept might be reasonably cheap.

 

[Wayne Morellini]

Meant for 8k like resolutions, cheaper and simpler.

 

[Robert Berger]

Heh heh.. dont worry Phil, you are one of the ones that " get's it ".

Our high end customers who spend more money on camera prep and testing than alot of other films entire budgets prefer the new OLPF and the vastly improved color science and highlight protection... after testing both extensively over and over and over again. It is the smart man's choice.

But it doesnt hurt to have the option... for whatever reason. And even if not the old OLPF the choice to have some options on creative filters in that space is a good one to have.

I love the fact like Phill wrote that i don't need a IR filter anymore with the new Dragon olpf with high ND filters and with the new DEB you don't have to worry about noise. So i stick to the new OLPF in my Dragon!

Best Robert
New shoreel on www.camlight.nl

 

[Matt Ryan]

I think people are being really funny about the OLPF swaps. It's about as dangerous as cleaning the olpf or swapping a lens in the field. Obviously if you're in a mud wrestling event don't swap OLPF's halfway through... I don't think RED would release a product that would f&%k users sensors from olpf swap damage if they thought it was an issue. I'm sure they thought this one through...

Most of you swap lens mounts in the field right? That's simple and the operation will most likely be similar.

If you're renting your kit out ask them what OLPF they want and do it for them if you're that paranoid. Then off they go and all is good. Obviously if they damage your camera that's where insurance comes into play. I personally like the idea of the swappable OLPF's and if anyone is afraid to do it then don't.. No one is forcing you.

I think an olpf that's a mix of the old's low light performance with the new olpf's color and ir blocking and flare eliminating would be a huge hit. Personally the only issue I had with the old was the magenta flare orbs. The new is spot on for color, ir, and flares, but mix that with the old's more sensitive olpf and we're golden.

 

[Asif Limbada]

Awesome news.

Just thought I would give people a sneak peek on the Modular OLPF thats going to be available for Dragon soon.

There still people that prefer the old OLPF because even though skintones and highlight protection isn't as good as the new OLPF, they want a noise free image at higher ISOs that the old OLPF gives you by letting in more light. We of course will put whichever OLPF you want in your camera now... but the new OLPF module will make things alot easier to change.

The freedom and flexibility to make that kind of decision in different environments should be beneficial to everyone.. even if they only make the choice once and never change it again.

The Module install is pretty straight forward... we can do it or you can do it. Getting the old stuff out is the hardest part. The new "module" goes in easy and 4 little bolts and you are done. You dont need to touch any glass and you dont need to worry about putting it upside down or right side left. The front of the module is marked so you can see which one it is by just looking at the sensor so rental customers can quickly see which one is in camera.

At any rate... we are testing prototypes now and I expect these to be ready in 6-8 weeks after we get out of tooling. The OLPF Modules will be for sale in the store so you can choose whichever one you want or all of them and change at will. If you want to keep whatever OLPF you have in your camera right now you can still send us your camera and we can transfer your OLPF into a new module and send it back to you.

There will be 2 modules available out of the gate obviously ( The new OLPF and the OLD OLPF ) and IR PASS, ND, Clear and a few specialty ones will come after.

 

[Elsie N]

I think people are being really funny about the OLPF swaps. It's about as dangerous as cleaning the olpf or swapping a lens in the field. Obviously if you're in a mud wrestling event don't swap OLPF's halfway through... I don't think RED would release a product that would f&%k users sensors from olpf swap damage if they thought it was an issue. I'm sure they thought this one through...

Most of you swap lens mounts in the field right? That's simple and the operation will most likely be similar.

If you're renting your kit out ask them what OLPF they want and do it for them if you're that paranoid. Then off they go and all is good. Obviously if they damage your camera that's where insurance comes into play. I personally like the idea of the swappable OLPF's and if anyone is afraid to do it then don't.. No one is forcing you.

I think an olpf that's a mix of the old's low light performance with the new olpf's color and ir blocking and flare eliminating would be a huge hit. Personally the only issue I had with the old was the magenta flare orbs. The new is spot on for color, ir, and flares, but mix that with the old's more sensitive olpf and we're golden.

I agree that swapping OLPFs is not for the timid. And as I'm sure we all agree, having a middle ground OLPF between the two current models would be great. Or better yet, once Graeme gets through tweaking via REDCINE, putting those tweaks into a new firmware that covers the strengths of both the old and new OLPF, if possible.

But in the meantime, and I'm only going by what's been posted so far in this thread (too early to tell if this is a noise solution as it may affect the recorded image adversely, but still...) something like this gives RED more information and we may still get better handling of noise without all these stopgaps.

But even if they do find a fix, I hope they continue with the swappable OLPFs. I want the specialty ones... never mind the low-light/high-light swap-outs.

 

[Nawaf Alsabhan]

Honestly while I was annoyed by the red dot noise in the footage, I don't mind having some noise, as long as it's not colored like red in dragon or blue in mx, so I can't wait for D.E.B to come out to test it out.

But the idea of swapping olpf's is exciting, specially if I'm filming a dark neo-noir scene.

I do wish we would get a lowlight version of the new olpf (same great color, IR protection, no flares, but moving the stop from the top to the bottom) it would be great! But realistically I don't think it's worth RED's resources and time, which I understand.


I do want to say thanks Jarred and others at RED, listening to our opinions and helping us means a lot!

 

[Adrian T.]

I do wish we would get a lowlight version of the new olpf (same great color, IR protection, no flares, but moving the stop from the top to the bottom)

+1

There are just low light situations where we don't have the budget for high speed lenses or additional lighting equipment. This one stop could mean a lot!

 

[Medavoym]

As me and Phil suggested earlier, it would be great if the first "specialty" OLPF will be one that deals with the highlights while leaving the rest of the image pretty much unaffected (as much as possible). A Low Contrast 1/4 filter or similar, to make the image more filmic (similar to the Alexa). Bloom the highlights just a little bit, just as 35mm film does.

You can do that in post to some extent, but in my opinion, optical filtration always produces superior results.

This screen capture is from Errol Morris' documentary "The Unknown Known". I have no idea how they achieved it, but it doesn't matter. This is the general direction (it's exaggerated here but you get the point).

This, combined with the already great roll-off on the Dragon, should produce some great 35mm-like results. For those who want it, this kind of specialty OLPF would be a fantastic choice.

 

[LCamak]

I hate to say this, because I don't know what the current camera design can accommodate. But if you want many different OLPF's and others, you could have a rotatable carousel, or slide, to change between them. Arri might laugh at first, until they realise how behind they are.

Wayne, like you foreshadowed, I don't think the small size of the Dragon camera design could accommodate the switchable or rotatable design for OPLFs. Cameras that provide something like that for filters seem to be much bigger. Of course camera size is relative to your needs.

For my use, I'll take the smaller Dragon size over the options available. A recent job with an Alexa M on a Movi M10 and backpack recorder almost required an exoskeleton to walk. The higher end Sony's with switchable NDs are much bigger than the Dragon as well.

lael

 

[Les Dittert]

Would I get banned if I offered a group buy for an OLPF replacement kit for the MX ?
Some of you know that I have been shooting for over a year now with my Epic that has IR cut but no low pass filter.
I out resolve Dragon that way. Has aliased so rarely in the real world that it is not a problem.
Just pondering !

 

[Matt Ryan]

Would I get banned if I offered a group buy for an OLPF replacement kit for the MX ?
Some of you know that I have been shooting for over a year now with my Epic that has IR cut but no low pass filter.
I out resolve Dragon that way. Has aliased so rarely in the real world that it is not a problem.
Just pondering !

Could you make one for Dragon?

 

[Nick Fury]

That would be great, if RED doesn't do it. I may be wrong, but remember that RED initially was developing an enduser tool to change the new, for the old OLPF, but then pushed back, and wanted the cameras brought back, to be sure that technique, including tolerances were spot on, with the chenge-out. I am sure that this hasn't been forgotten, by RED and the enduser OLPF chenge-out will be both facile and foolproof.

Thank you very much

Fury

 

[Jarred Land]

Would I get banned if I offered a group buy for an OLPF replacement kit for the MX ?
Some of you know that I have been shooting for over a year now with my Epic that has IR cut but no low pass filter.
I out resolve Dragon that way. Has aliased so rarely in the real world that it is not a problem.
Just pondering !

you wont get banned Les You of course can do a group buy but you obviously can't do it on here because you will be voiding everyone's warranties on the MX since that is not an easy change. Getting everything out is relatively easy... getting everything back in is where problems happen.

We have always had no LP as a customer order option on MX ( even RED ONE ) , as well of as the Low Pass plus no IR , and those will be available for the dragon in this module form.

If you do do your group buy for Epic, I would recommend that you make sure you are very clear with the customers who buy it that warranties are broken so when we get a camera in with the tamper tags removed they know who to yell at

 

[Kevin Marshall]

You would end up with a better BMD!

It's funny - all the BMCC owners (myself included) are begging for an OLPF (Mosaic is slowly working towards that). Though I guess a 6K sensor would alias quite a bit less than BMD's 2.5K one...