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  • Hey all, just changed over the backend after 15 years I figured time to give it a bit of an update, its probably gonna be a bit weird for most of you and i am sure there is a few bugs to work out but it should kinda work the same as before... hopefully :)

MF Still Glass finding new purpose... :)

Ketch Rossi

Ketch Rossi

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It's really funny how things go in life sometimes, I have been snubbing on about the best of the best in Lenses as far as I can remember and always bought the most expensive lenses thinking they were in turn to be the absolute best, well it has been true with my ex. Master Primes set, yet they were not the most expensive Cine lenses, but amongst.

Then I fall off that wagon and tried out more of the lower end lenses to find surprises at every corner, my obsession with perfection vanished, my heart and passion for the Art refocused, and no longer is about the best lens, but the best lenses suited for a purpose, considering that there might also always be more then just one Best...

So, while the Panavision PRIMO 70 sure do look good, it's time to bring back to life some of that OLD, and newer MF Still Glass, and give it a new purpose in life (how fitting).

I have been working on several option for the RED WEAPON 8K 2:1 sensor and this one is actually the absolute cheapest and yet one of the best, comes in third place actually, but at a ridiculous lower price then the other two ahed of them...

Can't wait to see what they'll put out on the RED WEAPON 8K... I fill a new adventure is coming... :)

Oh, and they absolutely pair very nicely on the RED EPIC DRAGON 6k too... And so they will on the RED WEAPON 6k... Till the 8K baby comes out to play!!

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Absolutely agree Ketch. I've been thinking I was stuck with 35mm stills glass for the Weapon while suspecting it would not always cover the sensor. I saw the mention of Medium Format glass here on REDuser and after considerable research, decided that was my in for affordable quality glass suitable for the 8k sensor.

Got very lucky and found an assortment of glass that had belonged to a photographer who worked in medium format and took meticulous care of his equipment. But that only whetted my appetite and I delved into the notion of not only using the 645 Mamiya Secor lenses, but acquiring Pentax 67 lenses as well.

I've just finished up buying an assortment of Pentax K mount 67 lenses and a good range of M42 screw mount Pentax 67 lenses... the screwmounts because I found a PL adapter that will work for those. The Mamiyas and the bayonet Pentaxes will have to work on a Nikon mount via adapter for the present, until someone builds an affordable dumb PL mount adapter. The lenses I have will all be used manually.

I too am quite excited to put these lenses to work. I especially can't wait to see how the specter of the 8k sensor raised by fear of vignetting, gets tamed by using the center cut of well respected vintage glass.

Knowing you started in Stills and are familiar with this type of glass re-enforces my expectations from marrying this glass to Weapon 8k.
 
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I still work for the odd DP who is horrified by 35mm still lenses on Epic etc. They think the quality is not good enough. The thing is, for the most part we are taking 25photos per second in motion whereas a 35mm still image is available for us to stare at and study and has always looked great in double spread layout and larger in magazines. Sure, on some of the zooms etc the dropoff might not be so pretty or the bokeh or whatever might not be as sexy but to say the glass isnt high quality is a little bit silly.
Now with the idea of MF lenses getting a run, we will finally have some very high quality glass with a nice vintage look, albeit with ridiculous shallow focus when shot wide open!

Ketch, without starting a crazy ebay bidding war, do you think there is any merit in looking at the 6x7 glass like Elsie for even better resolving power as these were designed for a larger medium format film, and theoretically should offer slightly better results than a 645 lens?
 
Don´t overrate MF glass. It was calculated and manufactured to meet bigger film sizes and therefore greater circles of confusion. So even while you probably only use the center part of the image circle where it is best, "FF"35mm glass still might be sharper. Same applies to larger format glass, even worse here. Nevertheless it might have a pleasant look and may work fine for you. Also the shallow DOF won´t happen with a "small sensor" like the weapon. These lenses don´t open up very wide and you won´t have any wide angles. (80mm "normal" 6x6 lens has a different viewing angle on a smaller sensor, like any other 80mm will). Don´t let me get started on CA, breathing and general mechanics where cine glass really shines. Anyway this is an interesting part of the market and I can see that in need to evolve rather sooner than later.

Cheers,

Ulf
 
I guess we will see. Considering these 8k sensor upgrades will arrive sooner than the new ranges of lenses that will match. From my limited understanding there are plenty of the top cinema lenses that will not cover the full sensor and even though 8k might not be the most desirable frame/resolution in real word situations, lets face it, people are going to want to shoot it. Simple. If there are only a couple of lens options that will fit and look decent, thats not really enough.
The MF idea is still an experiment and a costly one at that, but atleast I (think) will be able to access the full sensor without having to wait for or buy $150k worth of cine lenses.
As I was saying above, 35mm still lenses are fine for the most part. Many of us shoot with them and that is evidenced in the amount of EF/Nikon mounts Red have sold.
The guys who already have MF kits waiting in the wings will be able to report on their performance sooner than later and you may like to hire a kit...
 
Yes, I totally agree here, I didm´t mean to criticize. I´m using 35mm still glass myself but I also have decades of working in MF world (still using MF) and wanted to point out what to expect :-) There simply are some serious limitations when used with small sensors, like on the wide angle side, but hey why not give it a try? I personally like my old nikon AI primes a lot for RED, not for all my work, there is definitely cleaner and sharper glass out there but I like the look and I would not even be worried to try them out on the VV sensor, they might vignette, so what, it could fit the purpose.

Cheers,

Ulf
 
Mark Toia has played with some medium format stuff on his Epic a year or so ago. I just had a look on vimeo in HD and besides the shallow focus and shift focus styling, I think I can tell the difference between the Hasselblads and the superspeeds used. Google it and see for yourself. Very sexy! For me the flaring and the crispness with vintage feel, if that makes sense is what I like with what he did. The supers have that soft vintage look but dont have the crispness, to my eye. Personally I like the idea of a lens kit that makes use of the sensor technology with lots of detail and resolution, yet still avoid that sharp 'video' look. So many people wanted to get that film grain look by using older softer lenses, even lenses that would have a bad condition rating on ebay ha ha
I cant think of the specific spot but from fading memory, I think there was a Chanel shoot a few years ago that blew people away because of the detail and crispness of the photography. Maybe it was Mandy Walker? Anyway, it had such crisp detail and felt like it was shot with a state of the art, best camera available and that is what that brand wants to be associated with. I cant imagine they would have been too happy with a soft grainy low contrast looking image on the screen, considering they had to pay Nicole millions!

Some smartarse will reply below and tell me it was 35mm and vintage PV anamorphics of something to really shut me up.
Anyway, check Marks clip and see what you think. As Ketch was saying, its a potentially new use for some really nice old glass that is so under-valued right now. If you consider what super speeds would cost you only a few years ago compared with now, MF cinemodded could be a crazy good investment.
 
To touch on some of the points, concerns and questions raised...

MF glass is not all created equal... Big news here right... :)

The Mamiya 645 choice is one of 3 in the MF realm of glass, it is the cheapest one of the 3, so a great way for many to experiment with and not braking the bank.

80mm is the "normal" focal for MF, it is surely not the widest focal... as with the 3 options currently testing and experimenting with I go as wide as 24mm, and that in the MF realm is a Super Wide... :)

Also true that using a MF lens on a S35 sensor might not held results as sharp as using a still 35 lens, however, this is not true for al MF glass either, as some of the MF glass has some of the sharpest lenses ever created in any medium, and this.

As for DOF and Sharpness concerns all together when using MF glass on S35 sensor, while a factor, is truly magic to see this lenses perform, even so on smaller sensor they are only using their larger center portion of the lens, but I am surely positively expecting them to perform beautifully on the Weapon 8k larger sensor, were even so they will not be used in their entirety, a larger closer to the edge, at list on the horizontal line, will be used, and this will give a nicer perceptiveness of this lenses as more of its image circle coverage is used by the sensor.

MF glass has something magical about it in their rendition of the imagery and this is what I look forward to it, of course the bigger the sensor the more their characteristics for which they were originally designed for will come to life, but not all lenses need to be fully taken advantage of edge to edge to showcase their true beauty... :)

As for speed, f2.5 is not too shabby at all for a MF glass... :)


At the end of the day consider that what we are having a chance to play with more lenses, that will additionally aid the looks and fill in any project depending on needs and goals set, ultimately there will be more options, some affordable, and some truly out there, I am working on the one more out there, have been for years now, but till then some of this FM glass will do an absolutely nice job, without braking one's bank... :)


And Lee,

The larger the lens the less of it's intend surface will be used, which in some lenses can be a good thing, on others not so much, as some of their characteristics will be lost when only using the smaller center part of the glass, on others it could be a good thing as it eliminates some of their design flows, which again could be considered beauty marks by others... additionally the larger image circle intend lenses you get the more you loose the wider end of the deal when used on smaller sensors, and not going to talk about cropping factor, which will be the wrong term, but it will be like in line of this effect as you'll now see only thru a smaller portion of that lens and you'll need to step much further away in order to get a similar field of view as intended, additionally of course there will be the change of DOF as well as you move further away from the subject just to acquire the intend framing so this will have also different results, some you might like some you might not.

In perspective, need to think same as if you shoot with a 40mm and need to get a frame as wide as a 24mm, you'll need to back up till you see it, but then the fill within the image acquired is a cheated one and want never look the same as if shot with a 24mm, as the distances from subject to background will fill different, same connect applies when using MF lenses on smaller sensor cameras.

I suggest you at list play with different lenses as I did beef go out and invest on a particular brand set of MF lenses, but unfortunately it will be still much different on the Weapon 8k, but it will at its give you an idea of what it is happening even the Dragon 6k.
 
A little off topic, but I was in a Panavision today, trying to spend some money for our little tax incentives.
Some AC friends of mine we doing a gear check and they were using the new 70mm glass. Interesting! They were using these on Dragon.
So, if panavision have invested in building these lenses, unless theyre rehoused older lenses, then the large lens idea might not be so crazy.
They have a new camera that is meant to be the digi version of 70mm film (65mm) but I dont know how that compares to vista vision size? Also reading through some of the posts about medium format lenses and how some of our friends dont agree there is any benefit, I wonder if someone who actually knows about this kind of thing, especially the older guys who shot imax and lawrence of arabia style with these big formats can chime in and offer some real world opinions about the direction we are leaning towards.

It might just be a look/style we will achieve but then again, it might actually be a necessity in the next few years.
 
Lee Kelly said:
A little off topic, but I was in a Panavision today, trying to spend some money for our little tax incentives.
Some AC friends of mine we doing a gear check and they were using the new 70mm glass. Interesting! They were using these on Dragon.
So, if panavision have invested in building these lenses, unless theyre rehoused older lenses, then the large lens idea might not be so crazy.
They have a new camera that is meant to be the digi version of 70mm film (65mm) but I dont know how that compares to vista vision size? Also reading through some of the posts about medium format lenses and how some of our friends dont agree there is any benefit, I wonder if someone who actually knows about this kind of thing, especially the older guys who shot imax and lawrence of arabia style with these big formats can chime in and offer some real world opinions about the direction we are leaning towards.

It might just be a look/style we will achieve but then again, it might actually be a necessity in the next few years.
Click to expand...

I have shot VFX and various plates on VistaVision, 65mm 5-perf, and 15-perf IMAX before. There is certainly an allure to the larger formats from a creative perspective, though initially it was all about really keeping the grain size down and having a very large projected image.

Panavision was and is developing a 65mm digital cinema camera. It's not a 70mm IMAX (15-perf) sensor, but rather closer to the 5-perf 65mm standard. A hair smaller than the Alexa 65mm. It's been a long journey developing that camera and the Primo 70 Series Primes and Zooms were part of that equation. The good news is that larger sensor digital cinema cameras are here today. We've already even seen these lenses used on the RED Weapon 8K Dragon camera recently at Cine Gear 2015.

Everybody has various opinions about format size, resolution, and other aspects of motion picture photography. VistaVision for instance was born out of the widescreen era of cinema and then made a resurgence in the 70s for it's extra resolution and minimized grain for VFX work. It's in fact still used to this day for that. We've seen some filmmakers use 65mm for "epic" compositions in some motion pictures.

Something I truly like about VistaVision, and RED Weapon 8K Dragon's slightly larger than VistaVision sensor size, is that there's still fast glass available for the format. Something you won't get on larger sensor sizes, although Panavision's achievement of T2 on the Primo 70s is amazing. Depth of field is one aspect of that, though you can make an argument there. However, light gathering is pretty important still for many of us. I've seen 8K FF Weapon footage shot on Canon's 85mm f/1.2 prime lens for instance, which I imagine means the CN-E 85mm T1.3 fairs well. Zeiss and Schneider have newer cinema minded designs for this large format worth exploring. And there's a lot of glass out there for those who want to Cine-Mod. Most FF35 still and cinema glass should be examined. Also, as we are doing here, MF glass is another option.

I personally love this particular larger format and see a world of possibilities from narrative and technical perspectives. RED's doing the right thing at the moment keeping the pixel size relatively large and expanding the sensor size.

As far as a necessity in the future? Well for those who need to hit the 8K mark for their capture and deliveries, Weapon 8K is one option. Luckily in a very compact body and with a familiar workflow.
 
As we all know, there were more than a few people who boo'd and hiss'd at the idea of 4k capture. Now your phone can shoot '4k'
With this in mind, if someone presented us with a 20k sensor and imax sized at an affordable price, most would shoot it, because we can!
It might be bullshit and not required due to the fact maybe our eyes cant even resolve such detail etc but you all know you would want to give it a go, even if just to look like a legend in the eyes of your peers!

So those primo 70s are new or an older lens in a new shell?

On another unrelated note, I was shown an old C-mount 16mm lens 300mm (tiny little thing) and it was amazing! Looked as crisp and sharp with lots of detail.
Two ends of the size spectrum it was like a full sized Ferrari next to a matchbox toy car but that little toy car sure did have some grunt!
 
Lee,

Don't read too much in what others say about MF glass loosing this or that, try them out, print out some 8x10's and larger off the Dragon 6k, edit and grade something in 4k and watch it on a 4k monitor/TV then be ready to go out and really search for MF glass as I know you'll love it too... :)

Is it perfect? No. Is it the sharpest glass? No. Is it the fastest glass? No. But it captures beautiful imagery as hell just the same... :)

And as Phil has mentioned several times here and there... There is lot of coverage for 8k coming from Cine & Still FF glass too, so there are still options, maybe less for 8k FF or even 8k 2:1 but more for 8k WS.

Then there are few Large Formate Cine Glass options coming, both form Re-Housed Still MF Glass and ones made form Scratch... Some not so expensive others very!!
 
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