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  • Hey all, just changed over the backend after 15 years I figured time to give it a bit of an update, its probably gonna be a bit weird for most of you and i am sure there is a few bugs to work out but it should kinda work the same as before... hopefully :)

Matte Box Woes

The full size Vocas Matte box I saw at NAB had a cool feature that allowed a filter to be mounted in the very front section of the box that could be tilted up or down to reflect away a lenser. That was a pretty cool feature. I'd definitely be happy if there was a well made full featured matte box available at a reasonable price. I've owned both Petroff (who currently make a pretty nice modular box...expensive) and currently own a clip on Vocas older 2 stage model. But it is 4X4. Don't look forward to buying all new glass! BTW, the full size Vocas I think could take up to 5 filters with 2 rotating stages and could accomodate 4X4 and up.
 
Shawn Nelson said:
Finner...I'll give you that it's not an ARRI...but I honestly prefer it to the Chroziel. Can you elaborate more?

On a side note (and I am not accusing you of this Finner), I think there is way too much brand snobbery in filmmaking. Heck yes an ARRI is better, but is it 300% better? I think not. Sure Cavision had some trouble early on, but then people just write them off and dont give them a chance to improve. Guys at the Cavision booth were telling me that ARRI contracts them for some components.
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Hi Shawn. Don't worry about calling me a bit of a film products snob because I am. I worked for too many years with some of the best equipment on the market (all rental) and have come to expect a certian level of quality. The fully decked out Cavision was just under $2,000 US and I see for no reason at that price that the matte box should be perfect and it is not. The tightening knobs were in bad places and fairly cheap (there was a lock off wing nut on the swing out portion to lock the swing out that hit the side of the matte box every time you spun it.). From every matte box I saw at NAB Cavision seemed like they were giving you probably the best value for your money but it still was very expensive for what you get. I am more then happy to pay RED or View Factor 1,500-2,000 for an ARRI fit, finish, function and quality matte box and I see no reason why there would not be a good mark up for them if they sell it at that price. The problem is a lot of these companies are building matte boxes and then having to do a lot of work promoting them and then sell them wholesale to the sales companies that represent them those companies then mark up the price some more for their profit. These are all things RED products don't need to do. All RED products need to be is top quality and they will sell because RED already has a big customer base. Pretty much every RED reserve person will be going to the RED web site when they hear their camera is ready and will visit the RED online store and buy up a bunch of accesories there they feel they need. If at that time a high quality matte box for a reasonable price is offered they would sell a bunch. I would guess that selling 1000 MB units in the first 6 months would not be hard at all. These are #'s Cavision and others would kill to have come that easy. Break down the #'s 1000 units x $1,500 = 1.5 million. Sure after R&D and other costs they won't make a whole lot on the first 100 but I would be very suprisied if there was not a very healthy profit on 1,000 or more. Its all a numbers game and RED has the numbers so any company that can provide the same high quality products RED does and be lucky enough to attatch themselves to RED will do very well.

I am very glad Curt responded to this thread. At NAB you could see him, his brother and partner were all about top cinema quality with all there products. I am confident if they took on the challenge of a matte box we would get a fantastic one. What seems strange to me though is not 1 single response from a RED representitive. I thought by now someone would have some kind of comment on this. I thought maybe Matt would post something but I do not remember him ever posting on here before so maybe he does not visit the site. From all the responses on this so far though it is becoming clear that a MB is near the top of the list for many of us.
 
Finner said:
From all the responses on this so far though it is becoming clear that a MB is near the top of the list for many of us.
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Let's get a Follow Focus request in there as well.

Red Team, can you loan the Viewfactor Boys an Arri MB20 and Arri Follow Focus for a few days?

Can I make a request for two rotating 4x5 combo trays?
 
I think RED team members haven't responded, because they have nothing to say at this time. I'm confident that RED will offer a mattebox at some point. Looking at all their accessories they're producing as it is, they're trying to become a full cinema company. They are trying to supply a complete end to end system, so a mattebox is a given, IMO. I just don't know if we will see it this year. I would also like to see RED offer a manual follow focus unit in addition to the RED Motor unit they're developing.
 
lordnumberzero said:
Let's get a Follow Focus request in there as well.

Red Team, can you loan the Viewfactor Boys an Arri MB20 and Arri Follow Focus for a few days?
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Did you see the remote FF version View Factor is building in conjunction with RED? The motors look great and the hand set is so modular that you can mount the focus wheel right on the camera rods so it feels like a typical FF. I think this option will work well and cover a lot more uses then just a mechanical FF. Curt told me that they are shooting for "beter then preston quality" and the best news is the handset is planned to be around $1,200 and Curt says we will be very happy with the motor prices. Compare that with all the good remote FF versions comming in at over $30k right now. It would not suprise me if they came out with a mechanical FF in a while but if this remote one works as well as they plan it may not be necessary.
 
I add my vote for a low-cost, feature rich mattebox. This is an item that would be needed by the vast majority of RED shooters. As long as it's a reasonable price with the features of the high-end matteboxes, you would get a lot of orders from the nearly 2000 RED reservations .
 
OK, I´d like to transform my request - maybe there´s a way to design a modular mattebox which can be converted from lite ( snap-on ) to studio ( rod-fixed ). Don´t know if possible at all.
 
Finner said:
Did you see the remote FF version View Factor is building in conjunction with RED?
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I did see it the diagram of the unit on their handout. I hadn't really thought in terms of always using wireless follow focus just because I am conditioned to think in terms of $6000 being the entry point to a usable system. A $2000 remote unit and motor cost changes the game, doesn't it? You can even afford to own a backup unit.
 
We're in the process of redesigning the remote to make it more ergononic.. we're also making an FF knob that will attach on the mattebox bars and allow you to directly control the RED motor as is if were a regular mechanical FF.

I think we will go ahead with the mattebox. If this thread is any indication of the demand I think there is something there. This will be a welcome relief from the overly complicated stuff that I'm used to making - not that a mattebox doesn't have its own complications.
 
Finner said:
I would guess that selling 1000 MB units in the first 6 months would not be hard at all. These are #'s Cavision and others would kill to have come that easy. Break down the #'s 1000 units x $1,500 = 1.5 million. Sure after R&D and other costs they won't make a whole lot on the first 100 but I would be very suprisied if there was not a very healthy profit on 1,000 or more. Its all a numbers game and RED has the numbers so any company that can provide the same high quality products RED does and be lucky enough to attatch themselves to RED will do very well.
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Yup. If you look at the current production schedule, it looks like Red is going to be making 1000 cameras per month by the end of the year. That's crazy volume for this sort of market, and I think it's going to change the accessory market a lot.
 
Yes please I'll take two.

Yes please I'll take two.

CVB said:
I think we will go ahead with the mattebox. If this thread is any indication of the demand I think there is something there. This will be a welcome relief from the overly complicated stuff that I'm used to making - not that a mattebox doesn't have its own complications.
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The demand for truly well-made matteboxes is huge. We can pay for this -- in fact we will pay, probably Arri, for it unless there are viable options. I have a Chrosziel swing-away for our VariCam and honestly it's not that great. Arri build quality should be the target. It doesn't have to be quite as modular as the MB20, just solid and well thought out. If it can clip on and be on 19mm rods that would be a huge bonus. Do smart things with the flags, include a cool standardized shipping case to put it all in, all the stuff we always have to figure out on our own.

Just hurry!! Arri's about to get a huge check from me and I'd hate for that to happen...

-rune
 
Hi Curt,

Ex ARRI service technician on stand-by to assist with tips in what the lads usually manage to break, crack, bend or rip. (There should be parts that are cheap to replace - Will think about it more and post it at a later stage)

After hearing you are developing FF - this makes only sense. Create an entire
accessory line - the market is waiting for someone like you guys.

Finner - you seem to be a man to my likings. After 20 odd years in the industry and having to slam a Moviecam body of a Sachtler head with a sledge hammer I know why ARRI builds the way they do. ARRI is big though and takes a long time to adopt input. (The barn doors of lights still fall out when being turned - due to cheap rivet solution - 15 years later)

Hope to see you coming up with good stuff. A cheap mattebox can be a frequent source of trouble :
flaps or masks in frame, repositioning akward to handle, unprecise alignment with outwardly focused lenses barrel etc.

We would love to see you guys succeed. I have to admit that we are looking for TOP Quality and are prepaired to pay for it. Hopefully their will be an alternative to ARRI soon!

All the best
Volker
 
Stuart English said:
No comments to offer, but we are paying attention to the feedback....
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Nice...

getken said:
Man does that drive me crazy! I'm constantly trying to stabilize those rivet points.
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I've just given up. If I have to move a light, I just accept that the barn doors will fall off and be moved separately. No company seems to be able to get it right. They either fall off all the time or they're so securely mounted that removing them [or adding scrims] requires tools or a nasty burn.
 
Just thought Id support this cause with a post...

I too would love a pro Matte Box/ Follow focus from View Factor or RED. Curt, perhaps you should talk to RED behind the scenes so that both of you guys arent developing a Matte Box. Always good to have choices but I think most folks would buy a RED Matte Box if it existed.
 
Emery said:
Just thought Id support this cause with a post...

I too would love a pro Matte Box/ Follow focus from View Factor or RED. Curt, perhaps you should talk to RED behind the scenes so that both of you guys arent developing a Matte Box. Always good to have choices but I think most folks would buy a RED Matte Box if it existed.
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I think it´ll more of a waste of time and resources. Here we have two great companies which introduce equipments that burst current pricing schemes in film production. If both start competing each other it won´t benefit us in the long term I fear, but reduce features and quality at least over time ( then we´ll be left with redrock & geardear again ) .
 
Sadly, my old Chrosziel Follow Focus is a single wheel, so it's got to go. Same goes for Matte Box; I want to upgrade to a swing-away.

If Red has something by my projected delivery time, October, I'll buy from Red in a heartbeat; if not, I'll have to pony up for something else.

Good shooting and best regards to all,

Leo
 
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