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  • Hey all, just changed over the backend after 15 years I figured time to give it a bit of an update, its probably gonna be a bit weird for most of you and i am sure there is a few bugs to work out but it should kinda work the same as before... hopefully :)

Matching an 8k Monstro with a 6k Epic Dragon?

Sure, just depends on who is receiving your footage. I also don't know what exposure tool you use, but for me on a meter having the right ISO entered or on the camera having the correct ISO for my exposure will help my work. You are right that the ISO setting doesn't change what is recorded like it might on some lower end cameras.

Of course you can just close your aperture until no stoplights are lit up and watch everything in gioscope I guess.
 
To be honest, you might do your self and your workflow a huge favor and just shoot two Dragons, or two heliums. Mixing the VV and dragon does seem like adding unnecessary complexity throughout the workflow.
 
If we could afford to rent two Monstro's I definitely would. But since that is out of the question, my remaining options are below.

1 Monstro and no B camera (doesn't satisfy my performance capture requirements.)

2 Epic dragons (doesn't satisfy my sensitivity requirements, nor my larger format aspirations.)

2 Heliums (satisfies the sensitivity and performance requirements, but this is the most expensive option by far. Plus, I'd like my A camera to have a bigger gate than the Helium can offer.)

1 Monstro and 1 Epic Dragon (workflow is more complicated, but matches my other criteria.)

So for me, I think the choice, taking into account the circumstances, is becoming obvious.

Thank you for your input!!
 
öI normally use the larger / better sensor for the wides and the smaller not as good for the longer glas. Then you csn usually open up more on the long lenses and compensate for more even noise structure etc and its quite difficult to spot differense when focal lengths are way differrent. Then colormatch in post a good colorist should not have much problem if they both got proper exposure.

Here is a garment product demo film we shot with dragon and a speed boosted bmpcc both using fd lenses. All closups bmpcc.

https://vimeo.com/111624314

 
I’ve never actually tried this- have no idea if image distortortion would be introduced- having said that...

I assume your goal would be be match the Monstro as much as possible. 2 things you know, larger surface area, a stop and some more light sensitive. Theoretically, using a speed booster on the EPIC seems like a “closer” solution. Adding a stop or so of light, using more of the lens glass ( closer to what the FF Monstro would see? )



Would testing this even be practical in your situation?
 
IMHO, I think you are adding complexity where you don't need to.
I have shot Helium and Dragon at the same time, and matched them.
All these cameras are in the same RED family, carry the same "pedigree", so matching them is not that hard.
In the past I have matched RED and Alexa, RED and GH4 and even that some are harder to match than others, its possible to do...
For me, I just make sure I have an optimal exposure in each camera, With each their strength of ND and appropriate ISO for the specific shot. Then I see if they match visually on the monitors and go on worrying about the other three thousand things on set that I need to do and fix, making matching the cameras quick and painless. But my baseline is to not to create rules where if one camera is at X ISO, the other needs to be at Y. Just make sure the shots look good individually, and then compare and see if you need to do a slight adjust in one of them so they are perceivably matched.
Heck, even in productions where I use the exact same cameras on a shot, they might be exposed differently, depending on how much light is hitting them or not.
Now, one thing I wouldn't do with 2 different cameras, is to do cross coverage. Where you otherwise wouldn't be able to detect any differences, if you cross cover, chances are much higher that you will spot the inconsistencies, specially with different sensor sizes. That's the only thing I would try to completely stay away from. And cross coverage kinda sucks anyway...
 
Agree with Daniel here. Don't cross cover and you'll be fine!

I've seen Helium and Dragon matched very well, the same way I've seen Dragon and MX matched very well. With IPP2, matching has become even easier to accomplish.

At the end of the day, expose both sensors as best as you can and make sure your post-house/colorist is comfortable with IPP2.

Out of curiosity (and sorry if you already mentioned it), what lenses are you planning on using?
 
Vladimir Eugene said:
I’ve never actually tried this- have no idea if image distortortion would be introduced- having said that...

I assume your goal would be be match the Monstro as much as possible. 2 things you know, larger surface area, a stop and some more light sensitive. Theoretically, using a speed booster on the EPIC seems like a “closer” solution. Adding a stop or so of light, using more of the lens glass ( closer to what the FF Monstro would see? )



Would testing this even be practical in your situation?
Click to expand...

Hey Vladimir thank you for your input! That's an interesting idea that I hadn't considered at all.

I don't really have any familiarity with speed boosters, but I was under the impression that you couldn't speed boost a DSMC1 camera because of something to do with the sensor cavity I think?

But if it's possible I can test it! The rental house I'm going to use either has their Monstro, or will be getting one very soon. So as long as I can get my hands on a speed booster it'll be possible to test!



Daniel Stilling said:
IMHO, I think you are adding complexity where you don't need to.
I have shot Helium and Dragon at the same time, and matched them.
All these cameras are in the same RED family, carry the same "pedigree", so matching them is not that hard.
In the past I have matched RED and Alexa, RED and GH4 and even that some are harder to match than others, its possible to do...
For me, I just make sure I have an optimal exposure in each camera, With each their strength of ND and appropriate ISO for the specific shot. Then I see if they match visually on the monitors and go on worrying about the other three thousand things on set that I need to do and fix, making matching the cameras quick and painless. But my baseline is to not to create rules where if one camera is at X ISO, the other needs to be at Y. Just make sure the shots look good individually, and then compare and see if you need to do a slight adjust in one of them so they are perceivably matched.
...
Now, one thing I wouldn't do with 2 different cameras, is to do cross coverage
Click to expand...

Well that's a huge relief hahahaha. Thank you for your input. When I get my hands on a Monstro, I'll test for myself just to be safe. But, if what you are saying is true, that makes my life ten million times easier because the point of the B camera's coverage is to not be tied down by what the A camera is doing. So that sounds like a win-win to me! (But it does mean that my B-camera operator needs to be an expert with exposure as well. But that's not the end of the world though.)

And totally agree with you about cross coverage. We are going to avoid it like the plague. Currently I've got a firm commitment from everyone involved to not shooting any cross coverage, but I imagine I'll get some pushback on that at some point during the shoot hahaha. Just got to stay strong and explain in detail how many problems that will create hahaha.


Simran Dewan said:
Out of curiosity (and sorry if you already mentioned it), what lenses are you planning on using?
Click to expand...

Hey Simran! All good I hadn't mentioned it yet lol.

We had all previously agreed on Cooke S7's without filtration (thanks to the "little girl in the forest" section of this video which is absolutely stunning, especially considering that no special lighting or grading was required to get there. Just natural light and IPP2 straight out of the camera https://youtu.be/JZfISfwb1j8.)

However, now that we are adding a second camera, and budgets are getting tight, I'm getting pressured to find a cheaper option as well.

So, I've been looking at the Tokina Vista Primes, but I think they'll be a little sharper than what we want. But I'm not against throwing diffusion into the mattebox. I'm actually a big fan of it. But it definitely won't be BPM for this project. I want it to be a little softer, but not prettier. So maybe something like a Satin (or more likely a Black Satin)

Can anyone who has shot with the Tokina's talk about how the look compares to the Cookes?

Thanks!

And thanks to everyone who has contributed so far!
 
There are quite limited amounts of speed boosters awailable for red cameras as of now so I think that option can be pretty much hatched out for most.

Put a ND 3 in monstro and close it down one stop more than Dragon and lift Iso two stops. Then you got some what more similar falloff and noise pattern. Possibly need ND6 to get 3 stops total but that last stop you can even out in post easily. The ND / iso lift would only be to destruct monstro a bit to better match Dragon shot at its best. Sure that can be done in post as well but if you want it in camera then thats what I would do.
 
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