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  • Hey all, just changed over the backend after 15 years I figured time to give it a bit of an update, its probably gonna be a bit weird for most of you and i am sure there is a few bugs to work out but it should kinda work the same as before... hopefully :)

Makeup showing up with greenish hue

I concur. The thing is just that I am not hiring makeup. So I need to understand
what is really going on before telling the make up artist on set that certain brands should not be used...

Jeff Coatney said:
True. But until that is understood, the most expedient method is to remove the known defective element from the process.
Click to expand...
 
Yeah, I run into the same problem twice, was the make-up.
Not the foundation but the powder - it only happened where the foundation was thick (like in wrinkles). We tried two other brands, till we found one that worked.

Don´t ask me which brands, I´m usually not too deep into make up things ;-)

Just try different powders.

Hope that helps,

Frank
 
Sure,

I guess what I am saying is that I believe that color reproduction is more accurate whe you push the sensor toward the daylight spectrum.

I have noticed that all digital camera seem sharper and reproduce color more accurately when "living" in the daylight spectrum.

32k color temperature and sources tend to look softer and warmer and whenever you push a sensor out of it's native range the sensor will compensate in some way. This happens with all digital sensors.

Also, really have a look at the talent and what it looks like to the eye. Any good homeopathic doctor knows the subtle hues in skin are a health indicator and do really notice the quality and color of the skin under the lights. If anything, cameras as sharp and capturing as much detail as Red might be "seeing" a bit more than the human eye.

Also. I have worked with male and female make up artists so sorry if I assumed by using "she" in my last post.




axel ebermann said:
Hey David,

Thanks for your input.

Light loss is not a problem.

But I do not quite understand
how adding more blue will get rid of the green that is only popping up in certain parts of the picture.

Would you mind explaining that to me ?

The make up artists that we use are just as concerned as I am. We always do last touch ups on set in the light that we shoot.

Best

Axel
Click to expand...
 
This is my take:

In pre-Red times I shot most of my stuff on film. With this medium skin tone reproduction was natural and often more pleasing than in the real word. Make-up powder was hardly needed. Gentle diffusion or lenses that are pleasing (less sharp) to skin, like Zeiss SuperSpeeds or Cooke 18-100 are helping even more. When sweat and hot-spots aer an issue a handkerchief and pleasing light are doing a much better job than make-up powder.

A few years ago I shot a celebrity who brought his own make-up artist on set. He's working in the TV-business and there it seems that make-up artists use tons of powder. I was stunned when I saw the result: unnatural and a distinct hue to green, far from nice. My gentle question to use less powder to make him look more natural was strictly answered with a clear "Njet".

We shot him this way, with with all the make-up powder and the result was superficial with a green tint.

Red is not TV-video with in-build sharpening where all that make-up powder may make sense. Red actually behaves more like Kodak in this regard. And in case wrinkles are an issue there are many other possibilities then multiple layer of make-up powder.

I've shot a few projects with Red and tungsten light. With builds prior to 30.x I used a Tiffen 82c to heighten colour temperature. At that time I found that DR and colours came better off when daylight hit the sensor. But now the new colour science works very well with tungsten. I don't think it it's an problem anymore, grading works well and skin tones come off naturally.

I think it's a make-up powder issue.


Hans
 
Hans.

I agree. The new color science handles tungsten much better. Red lack of sharpening is akin to film and produces nice skin tones.

David
 
David Battistella said:
Hans.

I agree. The new color science handles tungsten much better. Red lack of sharpening is akin to film and produces nice skin tones.

David
Click to expand...

IMHO stressing the debayer process buy using 3,2k color temp when not needed (enough light) is not the best advise you could give... IMHO.

But the make up could be worsening the problem. Do the make up powder use UV/IR/... type of light filtering?

Pat
 
Hey Patrick,

Earlier in the thread I stated I feel it is always better to push the light color temperature toward the 5K that it sits at, but that is just me. Pre build 30 it was almost necessary to do this, but now not as much.

If we are talking about optimal conditions, then I also agree with you.

David
 
Frank. That does indeed help !!!
You do not happen to have a contact of the make up artists
who might know the brand names by any chance - do you ?

if you do - could you please PM the contact to me ? that would be terrific !!!

thanks

axel

Frank Glencairn said:
Yeah, I run into the same problem twice, was the make-up.
Not the foundation but the powder - it only happened where the foundation was thick (like in wrinkles). We tried two other brands, till we found one that worked.

Don´t ask me which brands, I´m usually not too deep into make up things ;-)

Just try different powders.

Hope that helps,

Frank
Click to expand...
 
i have had the same problem with a particular makeup artist and people looked like the incredible hulk!

I found out it was because she was using mineral makeup and the finishing veil (Last coat) has a perlescence (I prob spelt wrong) so it catches the light and tinges the face green.

You can all send me $100 now. As this problem cost me dearly in post and you generally cant see it the RED monitor or even plugged into an external one! It shows up in RED CINEX.

Tell your makeup artists to use the normal stuff and not the new fancy mineral makeup!
 
axel ebermann said:
Frank. That does indeed help !!!
You do not happen to have a contact of the make up artists
who might know the brand names by any chance - do you ?

if you do - could you please PM the contact to me ? that would be terrific !!!
Click to expand...

I called her. She says it was RCMA loose Powder.
Also to avoid any fancy nursing, pearly, UV shielding, hypo-allergenic and "natural" stuff.

best, Frank
 
Weird, I don't see any green except for some yellow-greenish hues on the hair.

The skin tone is actually not showing any green hues but rather it is heading towards the yellow. I double checked with photoshop and scanned the HSV values and they confirm that it is correct. Anybody else see it the same way?
 
Axel, I've had these makeup issues for a long time shooting RED now (and ReD MX of course). Certain types of makeup show up very orange/green and can appear splotchy. There is a noticeable separation between the makeup tone and skin tone and this has nothing to do with the application. Shooting the same makeup under the same lighting with a 5D or an Alexa or an F900 does not produce the same result- in fact the other cameras' images look fine.

I have had this issue shooting celebrity talent for national spots with experienced makeup artists. It's burned me a bunch of times when the talent comes out on set and everyone looks at the monitor and sees a green face and pink body. It's a difficult situation when the makeup artist says that this is always how the actress's makeup is done and it always looks fine. In these cases it is their first time shooting RED. They of course say it must be the lighting. It has cost us time and headache in the past and continues to pose a problem. Some makeup artists are familiar with the issue already. There are a few workarounds.

I've found that orange and yellow base makeup are problematic. The problem seems to be exarcebated under tungsten lighting, and any LED lighting with slightly green spike compounds the problem even further.

In the days before the shoot I ring the makeup artist(s) and discuss the idea of not using yellow or orange base makeup. Even though it is counter to some makeup strategies with certain skin tones I ask them to use warmer, more pinkish hues or neutral tones.

When possible I try to use a bluish filter in front of the lens- as heavy as possible without compromising the desired shooting stop. It seems to help a bit.

Processing the footage in RedGamma2 and RedColor2 seems to help a little but ultimately you just end up with more desaturated skin tones. If you want saturated skin tones and dial the saturation back in while using rg2 and rc2 the problem just returns with the same severity as when processing red gamma/redcolor.

This makeup issue continues to be a problem on almost every shoot. It seems to be a sensor issue since other cameras side by side do not yield similar results. I hope that ReD R&D will look at this issue at some point.

The only way to grade out the problem is with a power window over the affected area. (other than greatly desaturating the skin tones overall).
 
Eric's absolutely right. I deal with this more often than I'd like.

There's something about yellow based make-up + tungsten that the R1/MX picks up. To the eye, you can see it, but it's nowhere near as bad as it is on the red.

The closer to 5000k you can get, the better it'll be. If you can also talk to the make-up artist, ask to avoid the yellow-based stuff as much as possible. It seems to go against their instincts.
 
Had another studio green screen shoot under t tungsten with celebrity talent. Spoke with the makeup artists in the morning and did a quick test on a stand in. I had enough light to use 3/4ctb filtration and had no issues with the makeup going green. I think the blue filtration really helped. Unfortunately, you don't always have the light output to use blue filtration, but it's easier at 800 iso than it used to be!
 
Hey guys,

Thank you so much for your input. After running a series of test and paying close attention to it I came to one (sadly unsatisfying) conclusion: Shoot daylight.
I have seen the same problem on other Cmos cameras too by the way (like the 5D) - but not as pronounced as on the Red ....


Eric Haase said:
Axel, I've had these makeup issues for a long time shooting RED now (and ReD MX of course). Certain types of makeup show up very orange/green and can appear splotchy. There is a noticeable separation between the makeup tone and skin tone and this has nothing to do with the application. Shooting the same makeup under the same lighting with a 5D or an Alexa or an F900 does not produce the same result- in fact the other cameras' images look fine.

I have had this issue shooting celebrity talent for national spots with experienced makeup artists. It's burned me a bunch of times when the talent comes out on set and everyone looks at the monitor and sees a green face and pink body. It's a difficult situation when the makeup artist says that this is always how the actress's makeup is done and it always looks fine. In these cases it is their first time shooting RED. They of course say it must be the lighting. It has cost us time and headache in the past and continues to pose a problem. Some makeup artists are familiar with the issue already. There are a few workarounds.

I've found that orange and yellow base makeup are problematic. The problem seems to be exarcebated under tungsten lighting, and any LED lighting with slightly green spike compounds the problem even further.

In the days before the shoot I ring the makeup artist(s) and discuss the idea of not using yellow or orange base makeup. Even though it is counter to some makeup strategies with certain skin tones I ask them to use warmer, more pinkish hues or neutral tones.

When possible I try to use a bluish filter in front of the lens- as heavy as possible without compromising the desired shooting stop. It seems to help a bit.

Processing the footage in RedGamma2 and RedColor2 seems to help a little but ultimately you just end up with more desaturated skin tones. If you want saturated skin tones and dial the saturation back in while using rg2 and rc2 the problem just returns with the same severity as when processing red gamma/redcolor.

This makeup issue continues to be a problem on almost every shoot. It seems to be a sensor issue since other cameras side by side do not yield similar results. I hope that ReD R&D will look at this issue at some point.

The only way to grade out the problem is with a power window over the affected area. (other than greatly desaturating the skin tones overall).
Click to expand...
 
just another follow up. More studio tungsten work and I had a chance to look at with and without blue filter. The blue filter definitely helps this issue.

I'm not sure why this issue isn't discussed more. It makes shooting under tungsten light a huge gamble. Your actor walks onto set and they look green/orange in the face with a distinct difference in the face tones with makeup and the rest of the body. Sometimes we plan on shooting at a T2.8 at 800 (optimo zooms) and don't necessarily have the light level to use a blue filter. Even just the 1/4 ctb filter cuts 1/2 to 2/3 of a stop. Such a huge bummer since the time you really need the high iso low light performance is when you are using tungsten lights (night interiors/exteriors i'm looking at you).

I sincerely hope this issue is being looked at in terms of future sensor development. Maybe it can be solved (or partially solved) in the color science. I think this issue is one of the reason a lot of people talk about poor performance in skin tones with RED and RED MX. I know when I have a beauty shoot I'd feel much better shooting Alexa, knowing I won't be battling troublesome skin tones under tungsten light.
 
I also do not know why this is not discussed more. Skin color is absolutely significant.
I just got a 80C filter (half blue), makes a big difference. and brings my iso back down
to 400...
 
80c will work. I have the entire 82 and 80 series (also 81s for warmth). But now they have 1/4ctb and 1/2ctb also. Really all the same as they are varying intensities of blue.

Anyone from ReD here that can comment on this issue?
 
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