Major improvement... free as usual.

[M Most]

Case in point: I think Red is doing the right thing by releasing improvements as soon as they have them. It is inevitable that it will take time for these improvements to be supported by the increasingly large number of workflows that natively ingest Red footage. If you want to wait, by all means wait. No one is forcing you to use MX.

Yes, they are. I work for a post facility. As such, we have to deal with everything that productions throw at us. And most, if not all, cameramen who are shooting the kinds of productions we deal with (network and major cable television series, as well as features) want the latest and greatest as soon as they hear about it. And they will usually refuse to use anything less. That is exactly what happened when the M/X was released - so yes, we were being forced to use it. With Red's and Filmlight's help, we were able to do that in reasonably short order, and with a minimum of fuss (short of having to use a one-off build of the Baselight software). But that almost wasn't the case, and that's what I'm referring to.

 

[Kris Anderson]

I don't understand what's so staggering. Red came up with new hardware (the M/X sensor) that solved so many issues that the old hardware had that nearly every cameraman I know of who tried it didn't want to use the old sensor again. But because the software support was not completely ready and in place when the first cameras were let out into the wild, it caused some upheaval and confusion in that for a number of us, the software systems we use could not process the new footage correctly. If the software had been delivered prior to the hardware, that would not have happened. This has very little to do with changing things in the middle of production and everything to do with release patterns. If you built a car that got 500 miles per gallon, but required some exotic fuel that was not yet available, you'd have a similar situation.

I'm as big a supporter of Red and its efforts as you'll find, but every time I say anything here that can be construed as even mildly critical of something they've done, people seem to want to paint my remarks as something evil. All I'm doing is pointing out something that I hope will be addressed in the future because it's been a problem in my world in the past. I don't expect to be painted as some kind of pariah for expressing that concern.

I'm not painting you as anything. Don't freak out.

Would you plan a journey in the car without knowing where you could get fuel? Of course not. That would be silly.

Your concerns could easily have been remedied if you had simply followed due diligence and worked out whether or not the software to process the footage was available *before* committing to the process. It really is that simple. You made the call to forge ahead, the software wasn't ready. As a post house you should have could have consulted with your client to inform them it wasn't ready yet. Is it RED's fault you were left in that situation? No. No one made you choose that course of action. You chose it on your own, or your clients did. Really simple to me but you can't see it so... never mind.

 

[Elsie N]

Kinda shows how far RED has progressed. I remember when software companies paid little attention to the needs of RED owners, and now they want RED to drop everything and pay attention to them. Nothing wrong with that... it's just the nature of business. Guess it would help if the industry was standardized in some way. But I guess the only way to standardize the RED workflow is from within RED itself.

 

[Jeff Kilgroe]

Why does it baffle you so much to see it requested?

Baffles me too. The camera shoots RAW. Post process should be targeting full use of the RAW "negative". Why cripple yourself with legacy HD REC709 gamut? REC709 is still available in post if you feel you need it. If you're requesting it just to keep directors and onlooking producers happy, then uh I guess that's another matter. I have my own way of dealing with those situations, which may or may not work for others... That's a different deal involving education of shooting RAW, etc..

 

[M Most]

Your concerns could easily have been remedied if you had simply followed due diligence and worked out whether or not the software to process the footage was available *before* committing to the process. It really is that simple. You made the call to forge ahead, the software wasn't ready. As a post house you should have could have consulted with your client to inform them it wasn't ready yet. Is it RED's fault you were left in that situation? No. No one made you choose that course of action. You chose it on your own, or your clients did. Really simple to me but you can't see it so... never mind.

You don't know the situation, and I'm not at liberty to go into details about it. Suffice it to say that we didn't really have any say in the matter, and we did get good support from both Red and Filmlight in order to make something happen that shouldn't have been able to happen quite that quickly. And with that, I've said all I'm going to say on this topic. Hopefully I've made a point.

 

[Tim Morten]

Yes, they are. I work for a post facility. As such, we have to deal with everything that productions throw at us. And most, if not all, cameramen who are shooting the kinds of productions we deal with (network and major cable television series, as well as features) want the latest and greatest as soon as they hear about it.

If you're at a post facility, and you want the business of people who are shooting "the latest and greatest", then it's up to you to figure out how to deal with change (or to pass up the business). If dealing with change means devising a new workflow, or using software that's not your favorite, or even (god forbid) transcoding, then I'm sure the customer will understand you charging a premium. Griping that it takes the major software vendors time to catch up is like barking at the moon. Likewise to griping that Red should hold back on releasing innovations. Everything changes...

 

[Deanan]

You don't know the situation, and I'm not at liberty to go into details about it. Suffice it to say that we didn't really have any say in the matter, and we did get good support from both Red and Filmlight in order to make something happen that shouldn't have been able to happen quite that quickly. And with that, I've said all I'm going to say on this topic. Hopefully I've made a point.

The upgrade program had not started or even announced when the cameras went to the production that asked for them. The sdk wasn't finished at that point but on the same day that your company asked us, we got a custom build out to Filmlight that very day.

A extraordinary circumstance which got a fast and special response.

 

[M Most]

The upgrade program had not started or even announced when the cameras went to the production that asked for them. The sdk wasn't finished at that point but on the same day that your company asked us, we got a custom build out to Filmlight that very day.

A extraordinary circumstance which got a fast and special response.

As I acknowledged, on both your part and Filmlight's. But my comments here were not really meant to be related to one case, they were rather directed at the bigger picture. But as I said, I think I've said what I wanted to say, and I'm going to leave it at that.

Lunch is still open at your convenience....

 

[M Most]

Griping that it takes the major software vendors time to catch up is like barking at the moon. Likewise to griping that Red should hold back on releasing innovations.

I didn't do either of those things. In fact, if you actually read my response to Jim, I said just the opposite.

 

[Shane Betts]

Mike does have a point guys. I'm absolutely over the moon with the way Red keeps handing out new upgrades for free and I liken it to Kodak releasing new stocks - and we've gone from 1920's stocks to 2010 stocks in under three years.

Now, nobody ever complained when a new stock was released (well I did with T-grain but that's me) but new stocks don't affect post as much as firmware upgrades do. Personally I think Red covers theirs and our arses by (usually) keeping these as beta versions until 3rd parties catch up but everyone has gotten so used to the reliability of Red's betas that people just go ahead and shoot productions on software they downloaded this morning. I read posts from people updating firmware on-set [shudders].

For a long time the golden rules in post were never update while a job is still in post and always have a fall-back in case the update screws everything. How many times has an OSX or Quicktime update screwed the whole shebang and we pull our hair out for a week until BMD or AJA or whoever release an update?

We make it very, very clear to anyone shooting on Red and posting with us that we have a preferred or supported version of Red firmware and that anyone who insists on shooting on anything outside that range does so at their own risk and will pay for any screwing around we have to do to deal with it. But the clients we have are at a totally different level than the ones Mike has to work with and I can see how his ability to get these producers to toe the line is severely limited.

Nonetheless, I also see Jim's point. They can't govern how fast or slow other companies adopt the updates and they can't govern whether people shoot on betas or release versions. All I can say is there's no such thing as a free lunch and we all have to deal with it. That's why we get paid the big bucks. :sarcasm:

 

[Todd M.]

Yes, they are. I work for a post facility. As such, we have to deal with everything that productions throw at us....... With Red's and Filmlight's help, we were able to do that in reasonably short order, and with a minimum of fuss (short of having to use a one-off build of the Baselight software). But that almost wasn't the case, and that's what I'm referring to.

So your 10 (or so) posts about suggested changes to RED's generosity have all been based on a situation where you had to do your job with help from two of your vendors and you almost had a problem?

 

[M Most]

So your 10 (or so) posts about suggested changes to RED's generosity have all been based on a situation where you had to do your job with help from two of your vendors and you almost had a problem?

I'm done with this thread. I think those who want to and/or should understand what I was saying have already done so.

 

[Wouter Portegijs]

I'm done with this thread. I think those who want to and/or should understand what I was saying have already done so.

:banghead:
It seemed like you had a good point for as much as warning ppl to check workflow. However you decided to imply red was at fault or at least should be doing something about it.
Now more info has submerged in which is revealed red did an outstanding job fixing something that was not their responsibility.(sorry contingency on set is not their responsibility)
And now instead of telling us the real problem you just decide to shy away?
Fine by my but don't repeat it ten times please.

ontopic ..... How can we convince the world to update old stuff.... and not feature limit, so they can bring out a new an improved new model. Yep that was a compliment

 

[Jon Thomasberg]

[ON topic]
I would like to echo the previous thanks to Jim and the rest of the RED team for your tireless collective effort in constantly improving upon an already amazing platform and keeping the lines of communication open. As many others have pointed out before, your openness about such things fosters the sense of community that is rare in a typical vendor/customer relationship and significantly adds to the positive vibe. Your infectious enthusiasm speaks volumes. Clearly what you all do is driven by passion, and not merely by profit. Thank you!

[OFF topic, since the thread was kinda' hi-jacked anyways]
In an attempt to reconcile something constructive from the post by Mike Most, and with all due respect to Mr. Most, once you look past his apparent frustration in his posts, I believe that he has a valid point. However, in contrast to the suggested 'make sure every NLE has a patch before you release the next firmware update' approach, which would be nice, but perhaps not feasible, I would like to offer a more out-of-the-box suggestion to the coding gurus at RED: Would it be possible to compile a new codebase which utilized a basic "bootloader" or "helper" firmware at POST runtime (boot, not post-prod) to bring the core systems up, and then implement a user selectable menu prompting which secondary feature codebase to load {16 | 17 | 20 (.3) | 20 (.6) | 21 | 30 } all resident on an SD card in the SD slot, since the images are all <10MB each, with a default setting to boot to the newest release, unless selected otherwise within {5 | 10 | 15 | 30} seconds. I believe that if this option was made available, it would be consistent with the premise of modularity and flexibility that RED was founded on and is clearly improving upon with the advent of DSMC, thus adding massive value for rental houses, renters, owner-ops, and post-houses alike. The benefits of this approach are self-evident. I know you guys are busy with Epic, but just food for thought.

 

[Jay Gannon]

I didn't do either of those things. In fact, if you actually read my response to Jim, I said just the opposite.

Mike,
I understand your position, productions will always want to use the latest and greatest, but with large productions like what your house would work on, you have 1st the advantage of the reputation and presence behind you in being able to get companies to go the extra mile in supporting you, as shown by Filmlight and RED's solution to your issue.
But in some cases when its not possible to bring footage through to master without certainty its the responsibility of the post house to either come up with an alternative or to say no to the production when your still in pre-prod.
Understandably in the current climate post houses do not want to say no t any business but if the situation is there that the pipeline is not finalized and its not going to be possible (Pre-Production cameras etc) sometimes the house needs to say that to the production and that has to be that.

RED can be a double edged sword to those used to working in a certain way, the industry is used to relatively stable workflows and pipelines, RED doesn't really care about that they care about getting their product out there as early as possible and staying above the crowd. So sometimes productions need to be tempered in their need to use the newest firmware etc. Now of course everyone wants to shoot on MX at the moment, and when it came out first there were hiccups, however for anyone with enough power behind them the details were workable with a lot of support from all vendors. Smaller houses won't be able to get that so they need to make sure their pipelines are bombproof before they take on a MX shoot.

No post house would have taken on a HDCAM shoot before being sure of their HDCAM workflows etc etc the same applies now but its just requires reevaluating and retesting much more frequently than before. It means much more work for the post house, but at the same time any post house that puts the effort in will see it payed back tenfold in the workloads they have coming through.

Also Mike you have to understand that sue to your own situation your in possibly the worst position to be dealing with footage from RED as your much much more likely to encounter pre-alpha and prototype footage coming into your pipeline, by the time it hits most of us the pipeline is much more stable.

 

[Jay Gannon]

Dean Devlin has a self contained system for shooting, posting internally and delivering a very high quality show effortlessly. Somebody should ask him what he is doing. Every time I talk to him he is happy as a clam. He has never complained once. Every time we improve something he says... "thanks so much". I like Dean.

Jim

I very much would like to see his situation being more widespread, I know a number of people who work at his facility and because its all in one internal they have a lot more freedom than most, which is exactly what it needed when dealing with something so fast moving. Different business plan but it works. RED is about flexibility and being very on ones toes, some post houses can't move at the pace that it needed, I am still not sure if thats a good or a bad thing for the industry.

 

[David Battistella]

I have found that the people who complain most about RED's "workflow" are the one who want change the least. When I hear about productions shooting RED and then outputting to SR and never going back to RAW (when it is so easy on so many platforms) it makes me remember how politics can interfere with good ideas.

I'm so used to Kaizen from RED (and myself) that all of this improvement seems matter of fact and normal, even though I step back and know that it is extraordinary.

Thanks!
David

 

[David Rasberry]

Baffles me too. The camera shoots RAW. Post process should be targeting full use of the RAW "negative". Why cripple yourself with legacy HD REC709 gamut? REC709 is still available in post if you feel you need it. If you're requesting it just to keep directors and onlooking producers happy, then uh I guess that's another matter. I have my own way of dealing with those situations, which may or may not work for others... That's a different deal involving education of shooting RAW, etc..

Seems to me the simple solution is to create a LUT using a properly calibrated REC709 monitor and load that in the camera for onset use. Voila, REC709.

 

[Jonathan Stevenson]

Seems funny how every new Recon thread is all excitement for the first few pages and then turns rotten after about 75 posts... Apparently Recon threads have a shelf life for "freshness."

 

[Gunleik Groven]

Seems funny how every new Recon thread is all excitement for the first few pages and then turns rotten after about 75 posts... Apparently Recon threads have a shelf life for "freshness."

Nope.

It's just the summer overheating.

I must say that I have liked most of the addition and absolutely loved some of the substractions in later R1 builds.

The encryption move was a neccessary one, albeit unwanted, and as of B30 the Cam starts to be mature in all good ways.

When all metering is RAW, it is finally a no-compromise RAW cam that stays for what it is in all ways.

But by then Epic is probably released.

I cannot remember any serious post hickups after Clipfinder matured...

:Angel_anim: