Mad Dash for Scarlet

[Jason Rudd]

I think you're all forgetting that by the time the Scarlet is available for sale, there may be one or two competitors out there - like Panasonic or Canon, and I don't mean their DSLRs. That might cut down some of that pent up demand.

As well, we're talking about a camera whose performance we know nothing about yet. I'm really looking forward to seeing side by side comparisons with the Sony EX-1R for low light performance and dynamic range. For DR, the EX-1 held its own against the RED One. Other than the slightly larger 2/3" sensor, the Scarlet already has some tough competition in the existing Sony EX series of cameras ( and another EX on the way soon ).

 

[Terry VerHaar]

I think you're all forgetting that by the time the Scarlet is available for sale, there may be one or two competitors out there - like Panasonic or Canon, and I don't mean their DSLRs. That might cut down some of that pent up demand.

As well, we're talking about a camera whose performance we know nothing about yet. I'm really looking forward to seeing side by side comparisons with the Sony EX-1R for low light performance and dynamic range. For DR, the EX-1 held its own against the RED One. Other than the slightly larger 2/3" sensor, the Scarlet already has some tough competition in the existing Sony EX series of cameras ( and another EX on the way soon ).

To me, the biggest single advantage Scarlet has is REDCode/RAW. Until Canon, Panasonic and Sony offer the opportunity to bypass their heavy compression and restrictive color space, Scarlet wins, hands down.

 

[Greg Dieckhaus]

Sony and Panasonic Aren't the Same

Sony and Panasonic Aren't the Same

Canon, Sony, and Panasonic are not releasing digital "film" cameras that shoot 24-30 fps of RAW 3K-4K images. The Sony and Panasonic are premium video cameras with all of the weaknesses of the concept of shooting digital video. In comparing the Red One to Sony EX, have you viewed the 4K RAW or equivalent Quicktime file from the Red or are you looking at the downgraded 1080P version? The Sony 1080P/i file from the Sony EX doesn't come close to the 4K Red One images. If you are still photographer, you understand the concept of a RAW image file. A Canon DSLR can shoot a 4K RAW (full frame) still image that is equivalent to one frame of a Red 4K moving picture file. The Canon cannot shoot 24-30fps of RAW (full frame) images. For 1080HD, the Sony EX is exceptional. But I don't plan to invest in the Scarlet to shoot 1080HD. THe Scarlet will shoot 3K (still and moving pictures).

 

[Jason Rudd]

Yes, the Red RAW features are a big plus. But I'll take Dynamic Range / latitude over that any time RGB or RAW. I'm keeping an open mind before I put my money down and will wait to see tests and comparisons. If I'm late to the stampede, then so be it - I can always rent from those who have it.

I admire RED as a company, but I'll always go for the performance features which are best for what I shoot.

To me, the biggest single advantage Scarlet has is REDCode/RAW. Until Canon, Panasonic and Sony offer the opportunity to bypass their heavy compression and restrictive color space, Scarlet wins, hands down.

 

[Jason Rudd]

I'm not comparing the EX-1R to the Red 4K Red One. I'm comparing to the 3K Scarlet 2/3" specs.

3K bayered chips will not result in a 3K image. The debayering process will reduce it to something like 2k-2.5K. 2K is close enough to Sony's EX spec, that a valid comparison can be made. Resolution isn't everything.

I think you're confusing RAW with latitude. Just because a camera can shoot in Red's RAW code doesn't mean that will necessarily equate to very good dynamic range. You can have a great RGB video that has greater latitude than anything that shoots RAW. It all depends on the electronics and imagers that shoots that codec.

For example, when I tested Silicon Imaging's 2/3" SI-2K which has a wavelet compressed based RAW codec dynamic range I found it to be less than the EX-1.

Canon, Sony, and Panasonic are not releasing digital "film" cameras that shoot 24-30 fps of RAW 3K-4K images. The Sony and Panasonic are premium video cameras with all of the weaknesses of the concept of shooting digital video. In comparing the Red One to Sony EX, have you viewed the 4K RAW or equivalent Quicktime file from the Red or are you looking at the downgraded 1080P version? The Sony 1080P/i file from the Sony EX doesn't come close to the 4K Red One images. If you are still photographer, you understand the concept of a RAW image file. A Canon DSLR can shoot a 4K RAW (full frame) still image that is equivalent to one frame of a Red 4K moving picture file. The Canon cannot shoot 24-30fps of RAW (full frame) images. For 1080HD, the Sony EX is exceptional. But I don't plan to invest in the Scarlet to shoot 1080HD. THe Scarlet will shoot 3K (still and moving pictures).

 

[Aaron Power]

I think you're all forgetting that by the time the Scarlet is available for sale, there may be one or two competitors out there

If indeed they start shipping by this summer then I think it's safe to say the competition hasn't a chance (I haven't heard any announcements of scarlet-like cameras from major brands at least. Perhaps you could tell us if Sony is doing so, since you seem to work for them).

I don't think any figure should be rejected. Could be 5,000, could be 100,000!

Like I said before I'm no business major, but I'm pretty sure it's safe to rule out 100,000. Half of RED's image is maintaining the 'exclusivity' feeling you get when you become a RED user (super tight-lipped company like Apple, they named the sensor Mysterium X, and the concept models look like Ferraris, not cameras) and I think they're going to at least attempt to keep that image going by keeping scarlet numbers low (at least initially).

Although the Red Scarlet will not be as mainstream as the Canon 5DMk2

This is only the case because most Canon users right now are ignorant towards what RED is doing/believe it's way out of their price range. Lurking other forums, I still get the sense they think of us as elitist (and rightly so) but once RED ups the scarlet exposure as it gets closer to release (videos other than izzy) and they take note of the 4,750 tag, they'll be lining up.

I reached my fixed Scarlet $ goal last week so I'm ready whenever they ship.

As selfish as it was this is the reason I started this thread. I think the wording youre looking for is 'ready whenever theres a preorder' since if you only catch on by the time it starts shipping then you're gonna be waiting awhile.

It would be fantastic if you could order the Scarlet based on REDUSER/SCARLETUSER membership date/number

one can dream (unfortunately that's all it'll be)

 

[Greg Dieckhaus]

The Scarlet will be 3K

The Scarlet will be 3K

Your previous post was comparing the EX1 and the Red One. I would doubt that you have really seen a proper comparison of the two. The Sony is meant for video broadcast. The Red product is engineered as a replacement for film. If you are looking for a video camera, the Sony is good. For film equivalency, the Red RAW is a better choice. The Scarlet will be a 3K camera (according to Ted). That means it will produce Redcode RAW in the following resolutions:

3K 2:1 3072x1536

3K 16:9 3072x1728

3K Anamorphic 2074x1728

I'm not comparing the EX-1R to the Red 4K Red One. I'm comparing to the 3K Scarlet 2/3" specs.

3K bayered chips will not result in a 3K image. The debayering process will reduce it to something like 2k-2.5K. 2K is close enough to Sony's EX spec, that a valid comparison can be made. Resolution isn't everything.

I think you're confusing RAW with latitude. Just because a camera can shoot in Red's RAW code doesn't mean that will necessarily equate to very good dynamic range. You can have a great RGB video that has greater latitude than anything that shoots RAW. It all depends on the electronics and imagers that shoots that codec.

For example, when I tested Silicon Imaging's 2/3" SI-2K which has a wavelet compressed based RAW codec dynamic range I found it to be less than the EX-1.

 

[jimhare]

Plus I think Graeme would say the EX resolves to about 1.4k...

But I agree, it's all about the image, and I'm pretty sure Scarlet will put out a beautiful one!

 

[Stephen Gentle]

Plus I think Graeme would say the EX resolves to about 1.4k...

But I agree, it's all about the image, and I'm pretty sure Scarlet will put out a beautiful one!

True - we can argue about detail losses from bayer and OLPF all we want, but really all that really matters is that Scarlet will pump out 3K worth of pixels that will look awesome...

I think you're confusing RAW with latitude. Just because a camera can shoot in Red's RAW code doesn't mean that will necessarily equate to very good dynamic range. You can have a great RGB video that has greater latitude than anything that shoots RAW. It all depends on the electronics and imagers that shoots that codec. .

Well, Scarlet 2/3" has a smaller version of the same Mysterium-X sensor in the EPIC S35 and the upgraded RED ONE, which has more lattitude than the Sony F35, so you know...

 

[Jeremy_Sawatzky]

Holy crap im excited :biggrin5:

 

[Jason Rudd]

But that's my point... the 2/3" scarlet will NOT pump out 3K worth of pixels after a de-bayer. That's the "weakness" of bayer chips - it's not true 3K, just like the RED One may have 4K pixels, but not after a de-bayer. It's been discussed on reduser ad infinitum.

And I don't know anything. The 2/3" may have the same brand as Mysterium X, perhaps even the same manufacturer, but we don't know anything about 2/3" scarlet chip because nothing has been shown in controlled measured tests (movie of Iggy does not count as that).

All I'm saying here is before everyone goes into a mad rush to buy thousands of these cameras, plopping their credit card down or hard earned cash, look before you leap. Just common sense. Try before you buy. Kick the tires and take her for a spin. Compare on a variety of aspects.

True - we can argue about detail losses from bayer and OLPF all we want, but really all that really matters is that Scarlet will pump out 3K worth of pixels that will look awesome...

Well, Scarlet 2/3" has a smaller version of the same Mysterium-X sensor in the EPIC S35 and the upgraded RED ONE, which has more lattitude than the Sony F35, so you know...

 

[Stephen Gentle]

But that's my point... the 2/3" scarlet will NOT pump out 3K worth of pixels after a de-bayer. That's the "weakness" of bayer chips - it's not true 3K, just like the RED One may have 4K pixels, but not after a de-bayer. It's been discussed on reduser ad infinitum.

No, it does pump out 3K of pixels, even after the debayer. If, for example, you shoot in 2:1, the image will be 3,072 by 1,536 pixels. What people are talking about is measured resolution - the image still has all the pixels, but they do not contain 100% of the information they could theoretically contain. This is shown by tests that have patterns and lines that get more and more dense, and they measure to see how far into the image you can still see the difference between these lines.

The main losses will come from the optical low-pass filter (OLPF) which stops aliasing, and a little will be lost in the debayer. But you still get 3K worth of pixels even if that only contains 2.4K or something worth of detail. But you have to remember it's all just numbers - It's not like that image won't necessarily look great 1:1 though. I mean, RED ONE footage still looks incredible on a 4K screen and while 1080p cameras don't capture full 1080p, they still look great on a full 1080p panel.

 

[Eren Ozkural]

No, it does pump out 3K of pixels, even after the debayer. If, for example, you shoot in 2:1, the image will be 3,072 by 1,536 pixels. What people are talking about is measured resolution - the image still has all the pixels, but they do not contain 100% of the information they could theoretically contain. This is shown by tests that have patterns and lines that get more and more dense, and they measure to see how far into the image you can still see the difference between these lines.

The main losses will come from the optical low-pass filter (OLPF) which stops aliasing, and a little will be lost in the debayer. But you still get 3K worth of pixels even if that only contains 2.4K or something worth of detail. But you have to remember it's all just numbers - It's not like that image won't necessarily look great 1:1 though. I mean, RED ONE footage still looks incredible on a 4K screen and 1080p cameras don't capture full 1080p, they still look great on a full 1080p panel.

All this faffing about measured resolution...I don't know about other people but we're not planning on just shooting test charts with our Scarlets, are we Steven?

3K, burst 150fps, FLUT, DR, customisation...bring it on.

 

[David Rasberry]

But that's my point... the 2/3" scarlet will NOT pump out 3K worth of pixels after a de-bayer. That's the "weakness" of bayer chips - it's not true 3K, just like the RED One may have 4K pixels, but not after a de-bayer. It's been discussed on reduser ad infinitum.

And I don't know anything. The 2/3" may have the same brand as Mysterium X, perhaps even the same manufacturer, but we don't know anything about 2/3" scarlet chip because nothing has been shown in controlled measured tests (movie of Iggy does not count as that).

All I'm saying here is before everyone goes into a mad rush to buy thousands of these cameras, plopping their credit card down or hard earned cash, look before you leap. Just common sense. Try before you buy. Kick the tires and take her for a spin. Compare on a variety of aspects.

There is no difference in this respect between Bayer and 3-chip cameras. A 1080p camera can resolve around 850 lines vertical at best. Most broadcast grade 2/3" cameras fall in the 600-750 line range depending on the lens. Even after deBayer a Scarlet has enough resolution to wind up around 1100-1200 lines vertical if the lens is up to it. It will be limited by optics in most cases, not the sensor. Consider that Arri's D21 digital cinema camera has the same resolution before deBayer as Scarlet. It is enough to fully resolve 1080p video or 2k digital cinema format images without compromise, as the chip's native aspect ratio is 1.89:1 wide screen format. No 1080p native camera can do that. I'm tired of hearing these " You don't get full resolution with Bayer" arguments. You don't get full optical resolution up to the pixel count from any digital camera format period. Some filtering is always required to reduce aliasing and moire artifacts. A fully deBayered 16 bit tiff file from a Scarlet frame will have 3072 x1620 RGB pixels defining the image, 2.25 times the pixel resolution of any 1080p camera. With their newest deBayer algorithms, Red is optically resolving about 80% or better. Still comfortably beyond HD.

Izzy may not be a formal test, but for a 720p monitor capture off the sensor its tells a lot. So does the still image of the Oakley time tank. We can certainly expect no worse performance than the detail and quality that these images show.

 

[Stephen Gentle]

All this faffing about measured resolution...I don't know about other people but we're not planning on just shooting test charts with our Scarlets, are we Steven?.

Yeah, I talked about that at the end of the post:

But you have to remember it's all just numbers - It's not like that image won't necessarily look great 1:1 though. I mean, RED ONE footage still looks incredible on a 4K screen and while 1080p cameras don't capture full 1080p, they still look great on a full 1080p panel.

 

[Steven Caesare]

Personally, as much as I am eager for a Scarlet, how about an IPO from RED!! I can scrape together some cash to buy a Scarlet outright, but I might be willing to up the mortgage on my house to buy into an initial public offering of RED!! Let the fun begin.

:hurray:

While I know you were talking about this from a personal financial perspective, I hope this is NOT, the case.

I don't think I want RED being run by a board of directors who will feel pressure to bend to their stockholders whim.

So far Jim's Benevolent Dicatorship is working quite well, thankyouverymuch. Jim didn't take Oakley public 20 years after he started it... and he already has personal wealth exceeding what Oakley got in IPO, so perhaps he'll just keep it for himself for a while. We'll see....

-sc

 

[Terry VerHaar]

While I know you were talking about this from a personal financial perspective, I hope this is NOT, the case.

I don't think I want RED being run by a board of directors who will feel pressure to bend to their stockholders whim.

So far Jim's Benevolent Dicatorship is working quite well, thankyouverymuch. Jim didn't take Oakley public 20 years after he started it... and he already has personal wealth exceeding what Oakley got in IPO, so perhaps he'll just keep it for himself for a while. We'll see....

-sc

Yes - I think you are right on all counts.

 

[Rick Presas]

RED is Jim's baby more than even Oakley was, I think.

I doubt RED will be going public any time in the foreseeable future. but who knows.

 

[Subhadip Sen]

Benevolent dictatorship is always the best way out. That is, until the dictator ceases to be benevolent. Jim, however, is exceptionally passionate about cameras, I think it is best for everyone if it continues this way. It certainly seems to be working well!

Having said all this, if RED does go public, I will be there!

 

[Thomas Mark Schaefer]

In my oppinion, there will be panic buying when the Scarlet fixed is released. Go back and read my several posts on this subject. There are a hole bunch of issues that have yet to be announced about the release. My suspicion is that every RED ONE and EPIC owner will buy as many Scarlets as they are allowed and we will see many of them on ebay for 25% to 50% over the prices they were bought for. Satisfying this demand will delay the general release of Scarlet and the going price will stick in RED's mind as "Well, this must be what they are worth, so a price adjustment is in order." There is a significant chance there will be a mainstream audience "buzz" (outside of the usual photo and video community) generated by the frenzy. Further, I would not be surprised to see large buyers from news and other networks suck thousands out of the market in bulk buys that will get precedent over fans like me. RED will have to decide when to fill the retail channel (B&H, the NY/NJ photo stores, etc.) vs. selling direct to fans, who are otherwise know as customers in the mass market. In this case, I don't expect to own a Scarlet before October. I also expect 20K units on day one (depending on the limits to RED ONE owners), the average eBay price to be ~$7,000 day two, 55K sold by the end of the year. I'll probably get mine for ~$6K in late September.