dennys bisogno
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Mac vs. Windows...
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Jeremy Hildebrant
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I had to work with Windows 7 professional recently, and it does indeed "suck balls." Hahaha. Especially for creative work. Unfortunately, Mac seems to have dumped its pro user; however, I cannot bring myself to seek out another solution until we know conclusively.
Mac -- with caveats, for ease of tally.
Michael Tiemann
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Another vote for Linux!
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Jannard
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This was, for the most part, a very respectful and informational discussion. Thanks to all.
As for me... I am the ultimate Mac guy but with a problem.
I have been a loyal Apple man for 29 years. I bought the 1st Macintosh in 1984 (with 128K).
Steve and crew were good to me over the years. The problem I have now is that the world is finally 4K... something we championed since 2005.
Windows supports 4K now. Jarred and I have 50" 4k Seiki monitors ($1200) on our desks at RSH. My 3 year old Mac Tower doesn't drive it. Every Windows machine does. Apple doesn't tell you what the future looks like. I have no idea whatsoever if there will be a new tower or not. If there is and it has graphics cards that support 4K... I'm all over it. If not, Windows 8 looks like something I'll need to get used to. My other fear is Apple's continued support for professional gear. They need to tell us that they are in this for the long haul.
I am in Apple as long as they support the pro. The signals to date are not clear. I hope they clear this up and soon. I am theirs to lose.
Jim
As for me... I am the ultimate Mac guy but with a problem.
I have been a loyal Apple man for 29 years. I bought the 1st Macintosh in 1984 (with 128K).
Steve and crew were good to me over the years. The problem I have now is that the world is finally 4K... something we championed since 2005.
Windows supports 4K now. Jarred and I have 50" 4k Seiki monitors ($1200) on our desks at RSH. My 3 year old Mac Tower doesn't drive it. Every Windows machine does. Apple doesn't tell you what the future looks like. I have no idea whatsoever if there will be a new tower or not. If there is and it has graphics cards that support 4K... I'm all over it. If not, Windows 8 looks like something I'll need to get used to. My other fear is Apple's continued support for professional gear. They need to tell us that they are in this for the long haul.
I am in Apple as long as they support the pro. The signals to date are not clear. I hope they clear this up and soon. I am theirs to lose.
Jim
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Jeff Kilgroe
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Reality check:
I can't live without either the Mac or Windows platforms. That is the ecosystem as it exists now. With the exception of the very small and very independent owner/operator types, I really question anyone who thinks they can do it all on one system or standardize themselves on one platform or the other. I have clients that need ProRes in every form. I have clients who require me to use software that only runs on one platform or the other. Even if I prefer to handle the entire workflow for a given project on one platform, I don't think I could ever survive with a single workstation. Some of the stuff I read on these forums is kinda mind-numbing when it comes to the approaches here. People are spending upwards of $70K, $100K or more on a camera kit and then trying to cobble together what amounts to a run of the mill gaming PC in order to post process and edit what they shoot.
Personally, I'm a long-time UNIX guy and cut my VFX/CGI teeth on SGI workstations. The Mac is the only UNIX flavor we can still buy that is actually backed by a large company with solid support. Linux is a different flavor and it has its place, just not around here, IMO. I have two Linux systems here. People can say what they will about Apple and iOS, abandoning the pro market, blah, blah, blah... Apple hasn't abandoned anyone, you just have to try and think the way they do in order to make sense of it. The folks at Apple, those in command from Tim Cook on down, have been molded and schooled by Jobs and his simplistic, pragmatic and even pretentious approach to the industry. If you get the rare opportunity to actually speak with one of the engineers at Apple or one of the higher ups and were to ask them why they have abandoned the "pro" user market, they would be offended. You see, they feel that all their products are geared at "pro" users and sophisticated consumers alike. The Mac Pro tower, as we currently know it, is done. Period. It's a design that is now 10 years old, stemming from the Power Mac G5 released in 2003. There is a new Mac Pro coming. I can pretty much guaranty you that it won't come in the same size, shape and style that we have all come to know so well.
The PC industry... Yep, like I said above, these guys are doing it WRONG. I want a PC that trims away all the fat and all the bullshit. Legacy bloat needs to be gone. I don't want a dozen USB ports on the thing or 3Gbps SATA ports stuck here and 6Gbps ports tucked away inside and not enough of them to do anything serious with. I don't want legacy PCI [e] slots inside getting in the way. I don't want switching power supplies the size of a football taking up 20% of the chassis volume just to deliver a paltry 1100W.
HP Z820... Yeah, I own one. RED has worked with HP to bring the RED Edition to life. Kudos to them for the effort. But let's be honest here, HP pushed this thing to market faster than they probably should have. They didn't try to design a system around the new platform. The PCIe slot layout sucks. The current E5-26xx CPUs at 32nm are beastly and awkward. They shoehorned the new platform into the existing Z800 form factor and it only kinda, almost fits in there. CPUs are bigger, bottom slot is supposed to be double-width, but it's worthless as a double wide. There's not enough room for it to have proper airflow and the SATA connectors/ cabling are in the way, causing strain on connectors and/ or large cards. Speaking of airflow, the ducted PCIe cover is a nice idea, but it's restrictive. I've come across a few different cards, some GPUs, some for other purposes, that simply can't fit in the system with that air-controlling slot cover. This is not the workstation I would have designed... Dell T7600 has some different ideas, some things better, some not. Overall, I think HP has the superior workstation, but it has quite a few head scratchers when it comes to their overall design. Then there's the other ones like Origin, BOXX, etc... These guys are charging premium prices for systems made entirely out of off-the-shelf parts.
People bitch about Apple not upgrading the Mac Pro for almost 3 years. I suppose that's mostly true if you look at the last time they released a new model with new chipset and logic board. The current E5 Romley platform is the generation that "replaces" what is in the Mac Pro, so it's only one generation behind. Keep in mind that it took Intel over 2 years to release a Xeon update. We spent the better part of a 12 to 18 months of people complaining about no Mac Pro update when there truly wasn't anything for Apple to upgrade it to. They could have done what other PC manufacturers do and simply release "new" models, but nothing actually new inside. Maybe that would have made people happy? As for the current Xeon generation... Well, it hasn't been the huge success that many predicted. The prior generation, you know the "old" CPUs that you can buy in the Mac Pro, are still selling briskly and have not gone out of production. They are cheaper. In fact they have a lower overall TCO to compute power than the E5-2600 series. And what's more, Apple isn't the only mainstream system integrator to pass on the new Xeon platform. To be entirely frank about this, if I were Apple, I would have skipped this generation too. I would be hard at work designing a new professional desktop that can serve a very broad range of user types. Something that doesn't need to use massive 32nm CPUs that are big enough and run hot enough to fry eggs. Xeon is making the shift to 22nm. Supposedly the CPUs are done, Intel is waiting for ???
The biggest problem with Apple's approach here is that we don't know what they might be thinking. We don't know if there really is something in the works. It leaves people guessing...
GPUs... Always a sore subject with the Mac, but once again, this isn't entirely Apple's fault. OSX is now 100% open for third parties to bring their GPUs to the table. Has been for some time. Here and there, some do bring out an option or two... Currently we can have the Quadro K5000 and GTX680 as well as a rather nice Radeon card. All as officially supported for Mac cards. And both AMD/ATI and Nvidia drivers will support most off the shelf PC cards on the latest OSX releases, with a few caveats. The big problem is GPU makers are in a damned if they do, damned if they don't situation. It's a tough market. Apple's only system that can take an aftermarket GPU is the Mac Pro. Sales of the Mac Pro are in a huge slump, no one knows what the next iteration will be or when it will arrive, or even if it will be upgradeable in the same way. It's hard for card makers to justify releasing a Mac version of their cards when sales are down and we're talking about what appears to be a dying platform. Not only that, but most users' needs are served by the GPUs they already have installed, the market is very small. Then again, a Mac edition card is pretty simple now that all they have to do is supply Mac-oriented EFI ROM on the card instead of the generic PC BIOS. NVIDIA is actively supporting their cards on OSX, so is AMD. It's up to their integrators to offer the card in the right configuration.
Anyway, enough time on the soap box here. I own and use lots of PC's. My primary workhorse of a workstation that I use for day to day R3D (and similar) related workflows is an HP Z820. I probably spend 60~70% of my time in Windows. Have been using Windows since way back when... All that said, I still prefer OSX any day. It seems I'm not alone here.
I can't live without either the Mac or Windows platforms. That is the ecosystem as it exists now. With the exception of the very small and very independent owner/operator types, I really question anyone who thinks they can do it all on one system or standardize themselves on one platform or the other. I have clients that need ProRes in every form. I have clients who require me to use software that only runs on one platform or the other. Even if I prefer to handle the entire workflow for a given project on one platform, I don't think I could ever survive with a single workstation. Some of the stuff I read on these forums is kinda mind-numbing when it comes to the approaches here. People are spending upwards of $70K, $100K or more on a camera kit and then trying to cobble together what amounts to a run of the mill gaming PC in order to post process and edit what they shoot.
Personally, I'm a long-time UNIX guy and cut my VFX/CGI teeth on SGI workstations. The Mac is the only UNIX flavor we can still buy that is actually backed by a large company with solid support. Linux is a different flavor and it has its place, just not around here, IMO. I have two Linux systems here. People can say what they will about Apple and iOS, abandoning the pro market, blah, blah, blah... Apple hasn't abandoned anyone, you just have to try and think the way they do in order to make sense of it. The folks at Apple, those in command from Tim Cook on down, have been molded and schooled by Jobs and his simplistic, pragmatic and even pretentious approach to the industry. If you get the rare opportunity to actually speak with one of the engineers at Apple or one of the higher ups and were to ask them why they have abandoned the "pro" user market, they would be offended. You see, they feel that all their products are geared at "pro" users and sophisticated consumers alike. The Mac Pro tower, as we currently know it, is done. Period. It's a design that is now 10 years old, stemming from the Power Mac G5 released in 2003. There is a new Mac Pro coming. I can pretty much guaranty you that it won't come in the same size, shape and style that we have all come to know so well.
The PC industry... Yep, like I said above, these guys are doing it WRONG. I want a PC that trims away all the fat and all the bullshit. Legacy bloat needs to be gone. I don't want a dozen USB ports on the thing or 3Gbps SATA ports stuck here and 6Gbps ports tucked away inside and not enough of them to do anything serious with. I don't want legacy PCI [e] slots inside getting in the way. I don't want switching power supplies the size of a football taking up 20% of the chassis volume just to deliver a paltry 1100W.
HP Z820... Yeah, I own one. RED has worked with HP to bring the RED Edition to life. Kudos to them for the effort. But let's be honest here, HP pushed this thing to market faster than they probably should have. They didn't try to design a system around the new platform. The PCIe slot layout sucks. The current E5-26xx CPUs at 32nm are beastly and awkward. They shoehorned the new platform into the existing Z800 form factor and it only kinda, almost fits in there. CPUs are bigger, bottom slot is supposed to be double-width, but it's worthless as a double wide. There's not enough room for it to have proper airflow and the SATA connectors/ cabling are in the way, causing strain on connectors and/ or large cards. Speaking of airflow, the ducted PCIe cover is a nice idea, but it's restrictive. I've come across a few different cards, some GPUs, some for other purposes, that simply can't fit in the system with that air-controlling slot cover. This is not the workstation I would have designed... Dell T7600 has some different ideas, some things better, some not. Overall, I think HP has the superior workstation, but it has quite a few head scratchers when it comes to their overall design. Then there's the other ones like Origin, BOXX, etc... These guys are charging premium prices for systems made entirely out of off-the-shelf parts.
People bitch about Apple not upgrading the Mac Pro for almost 3 years. I suppose that's mostly true if you look at the last time they released a new model with new chipset and logic board. The current E5 Romley platform is the generation that "replaces" what is in the Mac Pro, so it's only one generation behind. Keep in mind that it took Intel over 2 years to release a Xeon update. We spent the better part of a 12 to 18 months of people complaining about no Mac Pro update when there truly wasn't anything for Apple to upgrade it to. They could have done what other PC manufacturers do and simply release "new" models, but nothing actually new inside. Maybe that would have made people happy? As for the current Xeon generation... Well, it hasn't been the huge success that many predicted. The prior generation, you know the "old" CPUs that you can buy in the Mac Pro, are still selling briskly and have not gone out of production. They are cheaper. In fact they have a lower overall TCO to compute power than the E5-2600 series. And what's more, Apple isn't the only mainstream system integrator to pass on the new Xeon platform. To be entirely frank about this, if I were Apple, I would have skipped this generation too. I would be hard at work designing a new professional desktop that can serve a very broad range of user types. Something that doesn't need to use massive 32nm CPUs that are big enough and run hot enough to fry eggs. Xeon is making the shift to 22nm. Supposedly the CPUs are done, Intel is waiting for ???
The biggest problem with Apple's approach here is that we don't know what they might be thinking. We don't know if there really is something in the works. It leaves people guessing...
GPUs... Always a sore subject with the Mac, but once again, this isn't entirely Apple's fault. OSX is now 100% open for third parties to bring their GPUs to the table. Has been for some time. Here and there, some do bring out an option or two... Currently we can have the Quadro K5000 and GTX680 as well as a rather nice Radeon card. All as officially supported for Mac cards. And both AMD/ATI and Nvidia drivers will support most off the shelf PC cards on the latest OSX releases, with a few caveats. The big problem is GPU makers are in a damned if they do, damned if they don't situation. It's a tough market. Apple's only system that can take an aftermarket GPU is the Mac Pro. Sales of the Mac Pro are in a huge slump, no one knows what the next iteration will be or when it will arrive, or even if it will be upgradeable in the same way. It's hard for card makers to justify releasing a Mac version of their cards when sales are down and we're talking about what appears to be a dying platform. Not only that, but most users' needs are served by the GPUs they already have installed, the market is very small. Then again, a Mac edition card is pretty simple now that all they have to do is supply Mac-oriented EFI ROM on the card instead of the generic PC BIOS. NVIDIA is actively supporting their cards on OSX, so is AMD. It's up to their integrators to offer the card in the right configuration.
Anyway, enough time on the soap box here. I own and use lots of PC's. My primary workhorse of a workstation that I use for day to day R3D (and similar) related workflows is an HP Z820. I probably spend 60~70% of my time in Windows. Have been using Windows since way back when... All that said, I still prefer OSX any day. It seems I'm not alone here.
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Jannard
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The conclusion... OSX rocks. Is is the unquestionable leader in user interface. This is not close.
But... it is not clear what Apple has in store for the future. They either support the future, including 4K and a powerful system, or they lose their position as the choice of professionals. Pretty easy stuff to understand.
Apple had me. They have me. But they are about to lose me.
Then again... what do I matter?
Jim
But... it is not clear what Apple has in store for the future. They either support the future, including 4K and a powerful system, or they lose their position as the choice of professionals. Pretty easy stuff to understand.
Apple had me. They have me. But they are about to lose me.
Then again... what do I matter?
Jim
Simon Dunne
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As a man with many high level connections Jim, if you're not able to find out the answer directly from Apple, when is your own personal 'cut off' point for calling it a day and making the switch?
Kwan Khan
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<---- MAC user and will Stay with it as long as they continue to support their Pro gears.
Note: Love my MBP(retina) + RR with sonnet echo pro
Note: Love my MBP(retina) + RR with sonnet echo pro
Sergio Perez
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I think this is an excellent thread. If Apple reads this it should certainly give them food for thought.
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Jannard
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Apparently I have no high level connections at Apple. I used to talk with Steve... but that connection is no longer available. God rest his soul.
I am currently "dual-tracking". I keep my Mac alive while I am exploring Windows 8. I want Apple to save me. I want them to rise to the occasion but I am reluctantly preparing to switch if they do not.
My heart and soul is with Apple. I so wish they can remain relevant as it relates to professional imaging.
Jim
I am currently "dual-tracking". I keep my Mac alive while I am exploring Windows 8. I want Apple to save me. I want them to rise to the occasion but I am reluctantly preparing to switch if they do not.
My heart and soul is with Apple. I so wish they can remain relevant as it relates to professional imaging.
Jim
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Spot on post Jeff, as usual.
I think the punchline from all this is that for the most part.. people prefer Macs, and for good reason. The Retina Macbook is an incredible machine. OSX is a solid OS.
But it sounds like, and probably which is why people in the Apple camp havn't turned this thread sideways like they used to, is that most Mac professionals feel like they are now on their own. Too many posts here start with " I love mac, even though they keep letting me down. "
Steve was very good at making Apple Professionals feel like they were the backbone of the company. Now, its just dark. Very dark. Been dark for a very long time. Nobody at Apple is talking to the pros as a whole.. they havn't for a very, very, very long time... Even the news we are all holding of a new tower came last year not from an event or in a statement, but leaked from a personal email that Tim sent to some random guy... really.. that's it. Nothing else.
Lets hope come June at WWDC Apple changes this.. and I hope they change it not because we are all complaining about it but because they actually still believe in the professional community. The worst thing I would want to be happening right now is the PR guys at Apple being pointed to threads like this and asked to solve the problem. We know the guys on the Pro Apps team over there.. and I know they really care about us all, I just pray that someday soon whoever is controlling them finally lets them off their leash.
Whatever the case may be.. RED is not standing still and we aren't waiting for anyone to catch up. We now have 6K at 120fps. and we are just going to go bigger and faster.
We need as many horses as we can get. If the new mac tower is alot more than just an imac without the screen, then alot of people here including myself will be doing cartwheels.
I think the punchline from all this is that for the most part.. people prefer Macs, and for good reason. The Retina Macbook is an incredible machine. OSX is a solid OS.
But it sounds like, and probably which is why people in the Apple camp havn't turned this thread sideways like they used to, is that most Mac professionals feel like they are now on their own. Too many posts here start with " I love mac, even though they keep letting me down. "
Steve was very good at making Apple Professionals feel like they were the backbone of the company. Now, its just dark. Very dark. Been dark for a very long time. Nobody at Apple is talking to the pros as a whole.. they havn't for a very, very, very long time... Even the news we are all holding of a new tower came last year not from an event or in a statement, but leaked from a personal email that Tim sent to some random guy... really.. that's it. Nothing else.
Lets hope come June at WWDC Apple changes this.. and I hope they change it not because we are all complaining about it but because they actually still believe in the professional community. The worst thing I would want to be happening right now is the PR guys at Apple being pointed to threads like this and asked to solve the problem. We know the guys on the Pro Apps team over there.. and I know they really care about us all, I just pray that someday soon whoever is controlling them finally lets them off their leash.
Whatever the case may be.. RED is not standing still and we aren't waiting for anyone to catch up. We now have 6K at 120fps. and we are just going to go bigger and faster.
We need as many horses as we can get. If the new mac tower is alot more than just an imac without the screen, then alot of people here including myself will be doing cartwheels.
Peter Stelzhammer
Well-known member
Maybe just enough to let them listen to your story and what you'd expect from them?
Ok - to be honest I wouldn't step up paying like about 1 Million for a quick coffee with Tim Cook...
But then again - if I had the money and just the guts to do a crazy thing; why not take a bid over here -> https://www.charitybuzz.com/auctions/rfkcenter/catalog_items/337478?ref=area
Even if you don't end up pushing anything forward - placing a bid there will at least be noticed by some other people if you're not too bad at getting the word out...
It's just some funny idea tho (I'm pretty sure you could also spend that money on R&D or such)...
But I have no idea what doors are already open for you over at Apple, maybe it's not even needed to pay that much for a cup of coffee
Wil Wong
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Must agree with Jeff. I think the Mac Pro will morph. The old way of editing will continue to change. We'll be cutting with swipes and dragging footage in. Not yet but eventually.
I'm sure Apple with support 4K in one form. Hell, the ipads and Retina MBP will get there in resolution probably before any PC device. Maybe a thunderbolt output adapter (or thunderbolt 2). As for the Mac Pro type box? I agree that I'd be happy if it went away and that raw power continued in Laptops. Fine, maybe a breakout box or a dock that holds additional raw processor or video power.
Apple stopped making desktop computers (well not including the mac mini which I see it as a laptop without the frills) and we may see the end of tower computers. It doesn't mean Pros won't find quality in the laptops (which may eventually merge with IOS world). They'll still be folks that develop new ways from the new format. We just have to stay open minded for change...like how we switch from mouse to trackpad. From CRT monitors to LCD. Only the open minded embraced digital over film ten years ago. Apple pioneers. :smiley:
I'm sure Apple with support 4K in one form. Hell, the ipads and Retina MBP will get there in resolution probably before any PC device. Maybe a thunderbolt output adapter (or thunderbolt 2). As for the Mac Pro type box? I agree that I'd be happy if it went away and that raw power continued in Laptops. Fine, maybe a breakout box or a dock that holds additional raw processor or video power.
Apple stopped making desktop computers (well not including the mac mini which I see it as a laptop without the frills) and we may see the end of tower computers. It doesn't mean Pros won't find quality in the laptops (which may eventually merge with IOS world). They'll still be folks that develop new ways from the new format. We just have to stay open minded for change...like how we switch from mouse to trackpad. From CRT monitors to LCD. Only the open minded embraced digital over film ten years ago. Apple pioneers. :smiley:
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Jannard
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Rolls eyes...
IMHO Tim needs someone to talk to.
Jim
IMHO Tim needs someone to talk to.
Jim
Maybe just enough to let them listen to your story and what you'd expect from them?
Ok - to be honest I wouldn't step up paying like about 1 Million for a quick coffee with Tim Cook...
But then again - if I had the money and just the guts to do a crazy thing; why not take a bid over here -> https://www.charitybuzz.com/auctions/rfkcenter/catalog_items/337478?ref=area
Even if you don't end up pushing anything forward - placing a bid there will at least be noticed by some other people if you're not too bad at getting the word out...
It's just some funny idea tho (I'm pretty sure you could also spend that money on R&D or such)...
But I have no idea what doors are already open for you over at Apple, maybe it's not even needed to pay that much for a cup of coffee
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too late...
Panasonic showed a Windows 4K laptop/tablet at CES and The Google Android Tablet currently has the highest pixel resolution of any tablet, including the Retina Ipad.
Of Note Microsoft's own Surface Pro tablet has native 4K output from it's external hdmi port.
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Aaron McLane
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Mac all the way.
"POWER" is around the corner......
"POWER" is around the corner......
Wil Wong
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I do miss Steve Jobs...
Peter Stelzhammer
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@Jannard: haha, that could also be the case... I don't know...
me personally - I wouldn't do it; with Steve or maybe with Ive - different story...
but well, I came too late to get a chance anyways
back to topic; since I'm a tech-savvy person I'm still able to stretch the line a little bit when it comes to maxing out my Mac Pro... SSD's, faster-then-official graphics (flashed PC-Cards) -> it's possible; it totally would be possible for Apple also but yeah - they don't want to force anything it seems. In any case; I'll stick with Apple/Mac until it's getting unbearable (e.g. the company turning into a "Sony-clone" or stuff like that) - and that will take a while - I'm a very tough person (I sort of learned a bit from the reality-distortion field stuff from Steve it seems) XD
greetings
me personally - I wouldn't do it; with Steve or maybe with Ive - different story...
but well, I came too late to get a chance anyways
back to topic; since I'm a tech-savvy person I'm still able to stretch the line a little bit when it comes to maxing out my Mac Pro... SSD's, faster-then-official graphics (flashed PC-Cards) -> it's possible; it totally would be possible for Apple also but yeah - they don't want to force anything it seems. In any case; I'll stick with Apple/Mac until it's getting unbearable (e.g. the company turning into a "Sony-clone" or stuff like that) - and that will take a while - I'm a very tough person (I sort of learned a bit from the reality-distortion field stuff from Steve it seems) XD
greetings
Sergio Perez
Well-known member
It just wouldn't make sense for Apple to not have 4K support. The Retina Macbook Pro is already beyond 1080p, as well as the iPad. It will get there, I believe. The problem, using common sense, is that they want to integrate the way they distribute content with the whole ecosystem. They didn't support BLU RAY mainly because of the iTunes store and web distributed content. When they can get- like redray somehow does- similar file sizes for 4K for their 1080p material on the store, 4K will definitely come. Who is not betting on a Retina iPad Mini to come soon? Its a natural progression...
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