Lost 2 Rentals This Week!

[Johann Schulz]

tomk - can we see the results anywhere? :>)

And don't worry folks, this site is a bit like the desert, where a plane flies by and the pilot releases tons of bags of 'rice'. In the beginning some know how to cook it but others just throw it at each other. Anyway, eventually everyone gets hungry. I hope I'm done tossing! ;>)

...Not to make light of a global plight... oh geez, I may have put my foot in it again, who knows?

I hereby retire from posting until I'm holding my RED Camera!

 

[Joyfool]

Yes, Fotokem is notorious for not treating students all that well. (I gotta say, I loved Deluxe and their student price beat Fotokem's to boot). Your point, about the difference between the work they do for students and their high end stuff is well-taken though.

That said, people who had come on set, seen the Red working, seen what the footage looked like, and had become instant fans, left that tour with serious second doubts. It can be frustrating...

We had a similar experience with FotoKem. We (our director) called to inquire about supporting our indie film (to be shot on RED). The first thing said was we shouldn't shoot on RED. There was no workflow to speak of and purchasing a red was silly because a real package would cost you 150k (150k was his number). That very day our director was asking if Red was a smart choice. Solution? We went to Plastercity and had them do the pro Red detox on the director and she was back aboard. I was pretty shocked to have had a player like Fotokem be so disruptive.

Oh well. They'll come around. They won't have a choice with 5000 cameras shooting.

 

[GlennChan]

If the RED had a simple clean feed out the HD SDI port it would shut a lot of people up.

You might not be able to record that to HDCAM SR though... there was the whole thread about 24psf versus 24p. The SR deck will only accept psf, but the camera (if it does output 1080p) won't do psf.

 

[Michael Thornton]

You might not be able to record that to HDCAM SR though... there was the whole thread about 24psf versus 24p. The SR deck will only accept psf, but the camera (if it does output 1080p) won't do psf.

Please referred to the source SONY website.

It depend on the models and options.

The SRW-5000 is a high-end HD digital videocassette recorder that employs the HDCAM-SR format. Applications range from HDTV to digital cinematography. Key features include high quality 1080i, 1080P or 720P recording and playback, a wide array of internal format conversions, including 4:4:4 to 4:2:2 legacy playback of HDCAM and Digital BETACAM tape formats.

The SRW-5500 is a high-end HD digital videocassette recorder that employs the HDCAM-SR format. This VTR also allows recording and playback of the well-proven HDCAM format. Applications range from HDTV to digital cinematography. Key features include high-quality 1080i, 1080PsF, or 720P recording and playback, a wide array of internal format conversions, including 4:4:4 to 4:2:2, legacy playback of Digital Betacam tape formats.

Always go back to the source.

Here Sony HDCAM SR Pages

Tek

 

[Mark L. Pederson]

You're kidding right? I mean, obviously you're just having a bit of fun and not seriously suggesting that Red solved the issue of needing to cut on a moviola. I think that issue was solved long before the Red camera, and that no one has a client that says they'd rather do their project on the moviola because they don't understand the Red.
Chris

I am always having fun. Life is short.

But you know, there was time when "99% of major projects" were cut on a moviola ... there was huge resistance to non-linear editing.

We just didn't have web forums like this back then. It was my attempt to make an analogy.

 

[Dylan Reeve]

Learning codecs and conversion are must for editors in this age. You can escape for a project or too but not for your whole career. The so called people doesn't want to know about the codecs and conversion are all working in NLE which they were against right left and center earlier.

Learning in todays environment irrespective of any field is order of the day. You can't resist too long.

Sycophant - No hard feelings.

Trust me, I have no issue with this. I'm confident that I have a better understanding of the issues that surround RED post than most editors around these parts.

However, and this is a big and important however, when a director has an editor they like working with, and they consult that editor about what they like to work with and the editor is confronted with a new and (for them) untested technology then alarm bells start to go off. Visions of nightmare edit sessions start to flash before their eyes.

Like it or not, most NLEs are still built around a tape paradigm. They expect media to come in via SDI or Firewire or some other fairly standard input bus. They expect a timecode, and a tape name. There's certainly more and more file-based media (started with XDCAM and P2) and those workflows become easier, but they are still a little 'different'. RED is totally different again.

It's not that hard once you know what you're doing, but for someone who's used to either just sticking a tape in and hitting capture, or even worse turning up in front of a suite that some assistant editor has been beavering away at for many hours before, then the prospect of RED is not a great one.

They will adapt, and it will get easier, but for now they need a comforting and guiding voice if they are to take the leap. They need to be able to talk to someone they can trust (someone like them) who can reassure them that all they're going to need to do is make in and out points and cut just like normal. Once again, I think it's vital that RED owners facing these situations find someone who can be that voice, someone impartial who can provide a voice of reason and answer questions. Someone without a massive vested interest. That person needs to be willing to offer up this knowledge in a selfless way.

Until it's all a little more solid and stable in the post world, I think that person is going to need to be on standby if you want to talk these nervous nellies around.

 

[Jonas Nyström]

Workflow is not good for the moment. Period.

Will soon be OK, then great. Period.

 

[Chris Pickle]

I am always having fun. Life is short.

But you know, there was time when "99% of major projects" were cut on a moviola ... there was huge resistance to non-linear editing.

We just didn't have web forums like this back then. It was my attempt to make an analogy.

I completely agree that the resistance to non-linear editing was misplaced but the Red isin't the same paradigm shift. Not really. In some ways, there's nothing new about the Red from a broad perspective. NLE has been around for years, and once digitized, tape based and "flash-card" based workflows are pretty much in the same place.

Even digital non-tape has been around for a few years with P2 media. Differences in DOF and resolution are just camera upgrades. (albeit great upgrades)

By far, the biggest issue / difference with the Red camera is the codec. The HVX used an already existing and supported codec so the workflow was not so much a stretch.

With Redcode, an entirely new set of post tools is needed. Yes, there is some FCP support, but until it will cut native, it still requires a major conversion, which then raises conform issues. (I don't think cutting the proxies for long format will be a viable option--but I could be wrong.)

Rendering conversions over-night just doesn't "feel" right when embracing a digital camera work-flow. Yes, film required lab and transfer, but the whole purpose of digital is too avoid that, not to just make it the same. When you tell a producer or editor about the whole conversion issue, you already lose them. And as I understand it, conversions at this point are a long render.

As I mentioned, I think the conform will be a big issue as well. Indie folks don't want to spend 10k plus on Scratch just to conform. Like shooting digital, FCP was the way around the big post houses. And then to go back to expensive software / hardware? People remember spending 100k on an Avid suit only to have FCP arrive for $1500.00 bucks.

I have no doubt that all of these issues will get resolved, but I will go out on a limb and guess that currently, there is no real easy workflow that you could "pitch" to a wary but rational producer. If they have a proven workflow with their current shooting format, it's very hard to get them to change. Why would they. Saving money doesn't always change minds when measured against high risk.

But -- I completely understand peoples apprehension and feel no ill will. They have a job to do, a living to make, and families to feed. Change is scary. Scary change is terrifying. And if what they are doing works, then hell...

Cheers,
Chris

 

[Mark L. Pederson]

I have no doubt that all of these issues will get resolved, but I will go out on a limb and guess that currently, there is no real easy workflow that you could "pitch" to a wary but rational producer.

I "pitch" easy Red workflows to rational producers every day.

If they have a proven workflow with their current shooting format, it's very hard to get them to change. Why would they.

Because they can have a faster and cheaper workflow than 35mm film with stunning images. And a better result than HD hands down.

Saving money doesn't always change minds when measured against high risk.

You mean ... when measured against FEAR and incorrect information.

 

[Sean Sweeney]

I "pitch" easy Red workflows to rational producers every day.

Can you give a few examples of the easy red workflows you've pitched? Or link to them if you've already posted? We're expanding our services to include batch-outputting files for productions (DPX, Apple ProRes, etc) in addition to the RAW data they've got and I'm still trying to demystify some of the workflow process.

 

[Chris Pickle]

I "pitch" easy Red workflows to rational producers every day.


Because they can have a faster and cheaper workflow than 35mm film with stunning images. And a better result than HD hands down.


You mean ... when measured against FEAR and incorrect information.

What is your work-flow for long format work? Does it include a render to an "offline" format? Have you built a system that renders in short order? How do you conform? Does it include Scratch or can you do it with the free Red tools? I've tried to get my mind around some of the work-flows mentioned, but they all seem to involve some "duct tape".

Risk always includes a large portion of perceived vs real risk, but there's an old saying "you can't tell someone something unless they already know it"

 

[Mark L. Pederson]

Can you give a few examples of the easy red workflows you've pitched? Or link to them if you've already posted? We're expanding our services to include batch-outputting files for productions (DPX, Apple ProRes, etc) in addition to the RAW data they've got and I'm still trying to demystify some of the workflow process.

Sean -

I'd be happy too.

I might even write a nice LONG post about Red Workflows later tonight before I go to bed - since it seems everybody is getting "edgy" again -

I have 4-5 hours more of work to get through - it's so damn busy over here - you know - with all these "nonextistent" workflows -

 

[Mark L. Pederson]

Risk always includes a large portion of perceived vs real risk, but there's an old saying "you can't tell someone something unless they already know it"

I'll write a nice long post tonight - back to work -

I am always doing that which I can not do, in order that I may learn how to do it. - Pablo Picasso

 

[Sean Sweeney]

Sean -

I'd be happy too.

Thanks! I'm sure many people will appreciate a little clarity - I want to silence all of the RED smack talk. Half of the time on set I'm debunking wild rumors about the RED. Someone should start a thread about the ridiculous rumors regarding RED and its workflow.

 

[M Most]

I am always having fun. Life is short.

But you know, there was time when "99% of major projects" were cut on a moviola ... there was huge resistance to non-linear editing.

Not quite.

Nonlinear electronic editing didn't exist until about 1984, when a few systems arrived, some based on videodiscs (yes, analog videodiscs) and some based on videotape, using multiple redundant tape transports to provide a "virtual" playback without any hard committed and recorded edits. Editdroid was disc based and was the first system to be used on a network television program (Knots Landing, for the 1984-85 season). There were some serious operational problems with it, however, and the show was shifted to the Ediflex, a multi-VHS transport based system, in 1985. Lorimar (where I worked at the time, as a post supervisor) was the company that pioneered the use of nonlinear editing for longform work, and we did it at least 5 years before there was a commercially released Avid. We used various systems for our work - Ediflex was the primary one, but we also used Montage, Laser Edit (built by the Laser Edit post facility, later acquired by Pacific Video to form Laser Pacific), TouchVision, and various other systems. There were also some systems out there that we did not use, such as CMX6000. All of this was in the mid to late 1980's, before there was digital editing - in fact, before there was digital video. The use of nonlinear editing systems was adopted by the industry over a 4-5 year period and by 1989, the vast majority of shows were edited on nonlinear video systems and finished from videotape (Universal was the real holdout among the studios, as was Warner Bros. until they bought Lorimar in 1988). Features didn't widely adopt these systems primarily because feature editing absolutely required 24 frame accuracy - which was just not possible at the time because accurate, forced cadence editing in telecine didn't come about until about 1988. Feature editors wanted to cut at 24 frames, and that didn't really happen until the Avid Film Composer came along in 1992. Accurate negative cutting - necessary for feature finishing until DI's came along years later - could not be assured until this was the case, as negative cutting needs to be completely accurate because there is no recovery from a physical miscut.

As for upright Moviolas, they were primarily used on the West Coast. In most of Europe and in many East Coast cutting rooms, flatbed editors (Kem and Steenbeck were the two most popular) were the norm.

Sorry for the history lesson, but I just can't let generalized statements go unanswered, particularly when they give the wrong impression, whether intentionally or unintentionally.

 

[Mark L. Pederson]

Sorry for the history lesson, but I just can't let generalized statements go unanswered, particularly when they give the wrong impression, whether intentionally or unintentionally.

I expect nothing less from you Mike - but if was to put 25% of that into my attempt at an analogy - it would sound too much like a history lesson - and less like an analogy -

 

[Andrew Horvath]

Just in case,

Its always hard to go forward like 3/2 to 2/3 to 3/2....

Who is using the 3D shoots and/or 2 Reds with our Red lens.,

these are for tests right now...

 

[Rob Gardner]

Mark
I think it would be very helpful to hear a clear workflow for long-form television shows for cable (45:00) delivering on 1080i dvcam without extended renders or a Scratch on-line. This is the model now for many production companies producing cable series with the Varicam (or HDcam, for that matter) and completing in-house. Cable budgets are very competitive, and many companies (like mine) have invested in computers and decks to avoid going out of house for on-line services. I would make the observation, also, that budgets generally do not seem to be going up. If this is something Red's workflow simply can't do at this stage, I'd like to know that too.
Thanks
Rob Gardner

 

[Nicholas Shields]

I can get an hour's film to the lab, processed and best light in less than 18 hours. I can't do that with my Red files... on the fastest mac. Yes it costs more, but that's the price of workflow. I can't believe people are actually defending Red's post workflow. Outside of chipping away on a stone tablet, it's one of the worst in the industry. Please, they gave us a camera with four xlr inputs and the worst audio interface on the planet - with three-step work-arounds to get it back in sync. Why waste time defending them. Even they know they need to find far better solutions... and they are smart enough to find them... in time.

Nick.

 

[Andrew Benz]

Sean -

I'd be happy too.

I might even write a nice LONG post about Red Workflows later tonight before I go to bed - since it seems everybody is getting "edgy" again -

I have 4-5 hours more of work to get through - it's so damn busy over here - you know - with all these "nonextistent" workflows -

Mark, I would greatly appreciate anything that you would offer in term of more efficient workflows... including audio please.

All your help is always applied and appreciated. Considering the fact that this is on top of a normal yet busy day for you.

Cheers,

Andrew