Lost 2 Rentals This Week!

[Jimmy Gitonga]

Reddy Or Not

Reddy Or Not

One of the things I'm enjoying is the legacy jump that keeps happening to us in Africa. In the mobile telephony we've totally jumped past copper.

In Kenya, we have these guys who want to "come down" from Europe and the US and "grab" some shots of the "Mara". So I have this videographer friend who has lost a number of jobs because some of his clients would like the HDCAM. After taking a look at the RED and watching RED Mythbusters,"... really all we have to do is get RED and we are future-proof, eh?"

We have a full feature shot and is being edited here, with me throwing a word here and there. I hope to get Crimson, and with the FCP LOT, I think most editing can be done on this, on set and off. :nerd:

 

[Torrey Loomis]

Darren,

LTO-3A is a data-based tape, not a timecode based tape. So, you can use LTO to archive video, but also audio, pics, even scripts and other media like PDF's.

Its way easier to pull an item off LTO and manipulate it than cue up an HDCAM deck with FCP and re-digitize your media.

 

[gbalaji]

Digital Cinema post production is as easy and better than tape based!

Digital Cinema post production is as easy and better than tape based!

This all seems very strange to me, when you can shoot RED, and load the CF card media onto a Vanilla Mac Pro, or Mac Book Pro, and do an offline edit right on the set with the Proxies, without any rendering at all. I see jobs do this all the time, during breaks they load up footage and play it, and sometimes edit, time permitting. On a 17" MBP they can play the 1k files in real time and edit those -the quality is fine, and if they want they can render out to ProRes to see higher quality. And if they have a tower with a small Raid attached and a Kona 3 card they can edit the 2k and get very good quality images to cut with right away... It's just a education issue that people don't think this can be done, and feel they need 1080p tape recording on the set to do an edit. I spend part of almost every day on the education front... but with the amount of RED shooting, it always seems like there is more needed... We need more evangelsts to show the studios, and agency producers how this works. I can not tell you how many meetings I've had to "show people the light" it's fun when they get it.

+ Ted

Ted,

The so called editing with proxy is just for show and not worth the real edit. When i apply a simple effect its gone green screen after rendering.So the proxy editing itself is a reference edit of a referenced footage and the real world editing doesn't work like this. Like to blame the editors and post house for making a big mess for Red One based digital cinema acquisition and I believe the fear for their existence in near future with the advent of Digital Cinema Camera and easy post production are causing this mess.

I am writing a post on my site titled "Red shoot and FCP / Crimson / RedCine finish" and handover to DI team as DPX or TIFF and the post will be up in weeks time in my website and would also post it on this forum. The client is a major Television channel entering a new regional language channel in India and the workflow is smooth as ever with little or no hiccups.

As for as I am concerned encoding to Apple Pro RES422 / Avid DNXHD will be better option for offline editing.

 

[gbalaji]

Learning is order of the day

Learning is order of the day

We're a weird bunch us editors. We like to have a tape on a shelf at the end of the day, no question. We see the weird shit our edit applications do, and we're a little uncomfortable without the safety blanket of being able to recapture if it all goes cockeyed.

That said, many of us are also geeks, and new technology is always inviting. RED presents a great opportunity, and it's one that some of us are happier to investigate than others. Many 'dramatic' editors are very unwilling to get into technical stuff, and RED can certainly seem that way, but if you can provide them a little support they'll probably be okay with it. All they want is pictures to edit, they don't want to worry about file names, or codecs, or conversion, or anything else.

Learning codecs and conversion are must for editors in this age. You can escape for a project or too but not for your whole career. The so called people doesn't want to know about the codecs and conversion are all working in NLE which they were against right left and center earlier.

Learning in todays environment irrespective of any field is order of the day. You can't resist too long.

Sycophant - No hard feelings.

 

[David Birdy]

I can assure you Shawn, the higher you go, the "stupider" it gets.

Post of the week!

Dave

 

[Johann Schulz]

Ignorance is bliss, and I'm pretty ignorant! Yet, the more I surf this Reduser world as I await my camera, the less ignorant I am becoming, and my bliss has yet to wane. Oh Shakespeare (JJ), you creator of bliss, is anyone sane?

There seem to be a few new concerns about post here today. I thought something new was on the horizon to make this easier for the uninitiated. What a weird time to be criticizing, I think. How's that for cryptic?!

 

[M Most]

Darren,

LTO-3A is a data-based tape, not a timecode based tape. So, you can use LTO to archive video, but also audio, pics, even scripts and other media like PDF's.

Its way easier to pull an item off LTO and manipulate it than cue up an HDCAM deck with FCP and re-digitize your media.

With a videotape, you can pop it in a machine, hit play, and have full quality HD picture, sound, and timecode instantly. You don't have to digitize anything, even if you're editing (you can use an online bay and work in real time for things like title supers and other quick manipulations - and yes, they still exist and are still used). With an LTO3 tape, you have to restore it to storage and you have to use a computer to play it out. That is hardly a real time process.

For quick (read: television) turnarounds, with video only delivery requirements, video cameras and recorders are much more sensible because that is what they are designed to do. It is also a methodology that already enjoys a huge amount of worldwide support. You don't choose working formats based on what you personally happen to like. You choose them based on the requirements of the particular production and its delivery requirements, which include turnaround times. No one answer is universal or perfect. That's why it's nice to have choices.

 

[Steve Sherrick]

And just to clarify the 1080P output from camera workflow.

1. There is no audio and timecode coming down that pipe. You have to take the analog audio out and run that into capture card/audio device.

2. You can frame for this crop and downscale by using the 90% safety guide. So, if you know that this will be your workflow, adhere to that guide. Then you have no issues with framing.

3. The quality is actually pretty nice. I've used this to capture into a Kona 3 into ProRes and was surprised by how decent it looked.

As to Harry's account of the perception of Red workflow - it's very true. The stories I've heard are quite humorous. But we always have to keep in mind that not everyone spends as much time on forums, living and breathing Red. I find it's my responsibility to pass along the knowledge and hopefully expertise to those who inquire about it in hopes that their fears will be pushed aside and they can implement a solid workflow. But some do take more guidance than others and some just do not want to step away from tape or film - period. To each his own. All we can do is offer accurate information.

 

[Chris Pickle]

I love that this forum implies that anyone who doesn't choose Red is stupid, and that all successful producers that don't choose Red are stupid, and that editors that don't embrace Red workflow are stupid. And that people who worry about possible Red post issues are stupid.

I wonder how those working producers and editors manage to build careers in this business even though they are so "stupid". Cause you know, this business is so easy right.

You know, statistically, 99% of major projects are not shot on the Red, which must mean that 99% of people that work in this industry are stupid. Amazing that an entire industry has managed to grow and be successful even though 99% of those involved are stupid.

This attitude from this forum is exhausting.

 

[Mark L. Pederson]

This attitude from this forum is exhausting.

So is cutting film on a moviola.

 

[Harry Clark]

Wow...
This thread took on a bit of life. I really was just venting.
Mark, I have no doubt we will chuckle about this later.
It's fine, Genesis is cool. Having a good day.
Cheers,
Harry

 

[Stuart English]

1080p playback

1080p playback

So the live image is 720P but the played-back image is 1080P now with Build 16? Why isn't the live image also 1080P then?

Because the image framestore that feeds the codec is filled with RAW data, not RGB. On playback we can do some tricks to walk around that, but if /when we record 1080p RGB, that framestore would contain RGB data so the issue would be moot.

 

[Nicholas Shields]

KnockoutFilms is not wrong. As a Red owner/user, I do my best to not discuss RedUser.net because, outside of here, it is thought of as a fanboy site that is difficult to wade through without being attacked. With very few exceptions, there's an assumption here that if you own a Red camera, that somehow you know how to work it and that you are a professional. You don't have to dig very far to find out how wrong that is. I can't tell you how many times I've posted asking for advise and have received responses that are either completely wrong, naive or merely an attack for even asking for advise - most times by people how haven't even received their camera yet! Some days we have to boot the camera five or six times before it will work. The white balance is off... sometimes. It's buggy - even using a release build. The workflow is difficult. There isn't even a user manual for most of Red's software. We've shot over sixty days with the camera and it isn't getting much easier. RedRushes is a start, but it has a very long way to go. Shooting film may be more expensive and a more arduous post process, but at least it's a "known" - that's why producers adopt film/Genesis/D20 - because their workflow is "known". I know what I got myself into when I bought this thing, and I don't blame anyone for the faults. But the vast majority of posts on this site wouldn't exist if the poster had to say it face to face.

My two cents.

Nick.

 

[Thomas Koch]

I just did the sf 48 hour film festival with redusers own SF Geek (Mike, who is awesome) Shooting and editing with the high RES proxies was flawless, quick and easy. We got our film in on time and it looks absolute stunning.

With red space and final cut it is seamless and quick.

 

[Steve Sherrick]

KnockoutFilms is not wrong. As a Red owner/user, I do my best to not discuss RedUser.net because, outside of here, it is thought of as a fanboy site that is difficult to wade through without being attacked. With very few exceptions, there's an assumption here that if you own a Red camera, that somehow you know how to work it and that you are a professional. You don't have to dig very far to find out how wrong that is. I can't tell you how many times I've posted asking for advise and have received responses that are either completely wrong, naive or merely an attack for even asking for advise - most times by people how haven't even received their camera yet! Some days we have to boot the camera five or six times before it will work. The white balance is off... sometimes. It's buggy - even using a release build. The workflow is difficult. There isn't even a user manual for most of Red's software. We've shot over sixty days with the camera and it isn't getting much easier. RedRushes is a start, but it has a very long way to go. Shooting film may be more expensive and a more arduous post process, but at least it's a "known" - that's why producers adopt film/Genesis/D20 - because their workflow is "known". I know what I got myself into when I bought this thing, and I don't blame anyone for the faults. But the vast majority of posts on this site wouldn't exist if the poster had to say it face to face.

My two cents.

Nick.

I don't disagree with some of your points. But, just shot for 10 straight days using Build 16 on two professional projects and they both went off without a hitch. That's not to say there couldn't have been problems, but you know from all my posts on this site that I am pretty neutral when it comes to this camera and the community surrounding it. I try to be fair and balanced in my approach. I feel that as long as you do the proper testing, have the necessary support on set, and work within the camera's strengths and limitations, you can avoid a lot of major issues. There's no doubt the camera is being refined, the accessories are being refined, it's all being fine tuned on a daily basis over at Red. They don't claim to be perfect, they acknowledge they are learning all of the time, and they seem to put a high priority on customer service.

What I think we need more of is tech papers, best practices, etc. Essentially knowledge base resources that put facts and info to paper or pixels if you will. These papers may not always be the final word, but they give people a solid point of reference, and prevent the endless searching method that a lot of people seem frustrated by. The way to grow this community into a respected one is to have it come off as professional. That means, nix the personal attacks, focus less on heresay, and strive to point people to solid resources, so that the information they come away with is accurate and penetrates the industry in a positive way.

When people ask me about the camera, I give them honest information. If I think there project might not be the best fit because of a technical limitation, I give them my honest take. I am not a fanboy, nor am I a detractor. I'm someone that recognizes that Red is a tool, and needs to be presented as such to potential clients so they can determine if it's the right tool.

 

[Michael Thornton]

Actually, on Build 16, that's exactly what the camera playback is doing.. creating 1080p from the recorded .R3D files. On Build 15 and earlier its limited to 720p playback from the .R3D files. The QuickTime files are not used by the camera, they are generated by the camera for use by QuickTime enabled computer systems.

Stuart,

Does it play all clips from beginning to end? Or only one at a time?

+++++++++++++++

Now as far as post.

If you don't know how, call the pros.

Don't slam thing just because of ignorance.

http://www.hollywooddi.com/
Ask for Neil.

http://www.plastercitypost.com/
Ask for Michael Cioni

You can also PM me.

1080p on set, No problems.

We had a Post Supervisor/Client like that too.

I told them they can can have DPX every 24 hours, but it was not fast enough for them.

They wanted it faster.

We brought a scratch system on set and lay out to SONY HDCAM-SR at the end of the day.

Color corrections was done on a Da Vinci.

Problem solved.

Until, the PS decided to do Visual FX in down converted Digi Beta.

No comments.

Tek

P. S. 1080p is possible right now even on set to tape HDCAM-SR. Scratch is your answer, and you will still save money compare to shooting Genesis. RED is a lot more portable. I can not see any one putting a Genesis in the back of a vehicle and go run and gun.

LOL

Good luck all.

 

[Nicholas Shields]

Steve:

I agree whole-heartedly regarding the need for tech papers, best practices, etc. Without solid information - the kind that you find in user's manuals and white papers - only users with vested interest - owners, early adopters, etc. - will buy in.

Nick.

 

[Michael Thornton]

I agree whole-heartedly regarding the need for tech papers, best practices, etc. Without solid information - the kind that you find in user's manuals and white papers - only users with vested interest - owners, early adopters, etc. - will buy in.

I agree we need more info, but at the rate of changes. I think it would create even more confusions.

I actual had people say.

"Can I get a RED prototype yet?"

"Oh, when is the RED coming out?"

"I heard the red has no multiple out puts?"

People will read yesterday white paper and thinks it today.

RED move too fast for now.

"For some people, this will be their first camera" - JJ

This is why not all RED owner are pros.

only users with vested interest - owners, early adopters, etc. - will buy in.

I don't know any hobbyist that would spend $17,500-$100,000.00 on a camera package.

There is a problem with people thinking about just the $17,500, and not the package.

only users with vested interest

It would be better for RED and the industry if only pros buy it.

We can only dream of a perfect world, with perfect technologies and perfect buyers.

Tek

 

[Bruce Allen]

Learning codecs and conversion are must for editors in this age. You can escape for a project or too but not for your whole career. The so called people doesn't want to know about the codecs and conversion are all working in NLE which they were against right left and center earlier.

Depends. I know many successful who know practically nothing about codecs. Several make $1000+ per day.

Why? Because they're great editors - and being paid to do creative editing, not finishing. They have assistants to figure out the technical stuff. Their work is done at standard-definition resolution in Avid.

It's just a education issue that people don't think this can be done, and feel they need 1080p tape recording on the set to do an edit. I spend part of almost every day on the education front... but with the amount of RED shooting, it always seems like there is more needed... We need more evangelsts to show the studios, and agency producers how this works. I can not tell you how many meetings I've had to "show people the light" it's fun when they get it.

I think it's a "some people still just don't like and don't trust FCP" issue, not just an education issue.

When you guys get this workflow working on Avid, you'll find more people joining the evangelist movement.

Can't wait for that SDK!

Bruce Allen
www.boacinema.com

 

[Chris Pickle]

So is cutting film on a moviola.

You're kidding right? I mean, obviously you're just having a bit of fun and not seriously suggesting that Red solved the issue of needing to cut on a moviola. I think that issue was solved long before the Red camera, and that no one has a client that says they'd rather do their project on the moviola because they don't understand the Red.


Hey Nick, thanks for the support. I too, would like to come here and trade solid information and find bits of info on how folks are overcoming little hiccups and such, but sometimes the signal to noise ratio gets lopsided.

Chris