Looks...

[Alexander Ibrahim]

Thanks Jim - seems easy to me - so what's the issue people are concerned about??? ;-)

Okay - so one click to apply a look hardly seems like a task whether your on a BIG Hollywood budget or a small no-budget production - you can still get the result.

Sometimes you simply can't trust the ingest to do this for you.

So, my solution is to do my looks in pre-production as much as I can.

Then I load them on the camera.

On set I live with what I've loaded on the camera.

Frankly - I don't see the reason for the uproar. Even compared to 35mm this represents a HUGE advancement in workflow. How long must you usually wait for a 35mm daily to come back with a first light on it?

RC-X is still an incredibly important tool - but its real power gets deferred until I can spend time on it - usually after wrap.

Again ... not a technology problem. Not even an argument about best practices.

Just a statement about the sorts of budgets and people you may have to work with.

 

[Vico Martin]

Yes... on EPIC, each monitoring output can have a different Look. Not completely enabled yet but working on it.

Jim

Yeesss!, that would be a game changer On-Set!
Epic really is a monster of processing,

Vico.

 

[Alexander Ibrahim]

Another thing I've noticed is that people need to show the DP the image for some reason.

One thing Red One has NEVER done is surprise me. Once I tested the camera in the build 15-16 dark ages and ever since I've had a clear understanding of what it can do. Its a very reliable system and one that's actually very easy to understand - easier than negative film in my opinion.

I only need some kind of viewfinder to operate ... the rest is to ease the minds of others and as a communication tool. I completely carry the "true" look in my mind - just like DP's who shoot 35mm must do.

If you see me looking at monitors, with any camera I've prepped or shot before, its because the director asked a question, or because I'm pointing at a part of the image for the gaffer or key.

Being able to do that (i.e. understand the image in my mind) is a big part of my job.

So not only are calibrated monitors unimportant to me as I work, but if we had them I wouldn't care, because the Rec709 image is not truly representative of the RAW image.

Now, others don't understand the process of exposing and posting RAW or neg for that matter. If they wish to pay for it I'm all for giving them the best most dialed in image technology permits.

In my work, when they see the budget items for production monitors and a DIT to calibrate and manage them, that's usually when they ask if I need that stuff - and frankly I don't. So it gets cut and I can keep some lights, or another crew member instead.

Even dailies are of limited value to me. I am reminded of a noted DP who, on seeing dailies, would remark, "That looks just like what we shot yesterday."

Give me another $15,000 budget on average, and I'd get a DIT and better monitoring on every show. (I say $15000, because I have lots of other things I need before I get to those points in my wishlist!)

 

[paulherrin]

what are the chances of using the wireless connection to the camera to adjust looks in camera via redcine-x (or else)? that would be amazing.

 

[Martin Srebotnjak]

Here is Jims look file. http://red.cachefly.net/RCX10.zip

Download it, unzip it, then in REDCINE-X right click in the " Look Presets " box. Click load and goto the above file.

Press " apply " to enable the effect.

I guess this will be possible with Scarlet as well?
Does the fact that the sensor is not the same in Epic and Scarlet in any way affect the interpretation of the same look preset on those cameras?

Cheers, m.

 

[Dustin Cross]

This is the way I have been working with Red since almost the beginning. It is why Red is so awesome.

I really can't wait for Epic WiFi module so the DIT can tweek looks right on camera. That will be like having a wireless Truelight system sending metadata to camera, ut a lot more control. the iPad app at NAB is going in the right direction.


Dusty
Local 600 DIT

 

[Alexander Ibrahim]

To the DIT's here ... what are fair rate ranges for you and your cart?

 

[Dustin Cross]

The camera was great ... but my "DIT" didn't know that backups are supposed to be on separate drives from the first copy- even though it was explained to him and even though I had written a workflow document. Instead of a several SATA drives with complete copies, we had individual SATA drives which contained the master copy, the RAW backup AND the ProRes transcodes. (which were all done with the wrong settings)

It didn't help that the guy was picking up drives and shaking them to see if they were working.

Once I understood the extent of the disaster, I shut down B camera and assigned that camera crew to take over ingest and salvage what they could, which was almost nothing. The experience was a great shame to me as DP.

The entire episode, except for the final 3 days of shooting on a 14 day schedule, ended up at Drivesavers. Fortunately they kick ass and we got every frame back.

You think that guy was going to be able to turn in competent looks?

On low budgets we are always perilously close to that level of disaster. It doesn't matter if we are shooting Red, EX1 or 7D just getting A SINGLE BACKUP on set is often a battle. I feel like Hercules in the Augean Stables.

Having a competent DIT doing looks for me ... that's like an unimaginable nirvana.

A lot of the value of RC-X and looks comes from having a trained and talented person there to drive the software - like Brook and his brethren. It isn't magic and it isn't automatic. A real DIT provides lots of value to a production, value that doesn't come for free.

Alexander,

You did not have a DIT. You had a PA with no knowledge or experience claiming to be a DIT. Just because you give someone the responsibility of doing DIT work, does not mean they are a DIT. Those idiots really hurt Red. Producers that hire those guys think Red is a problem and it was the fact that the Producer hired someone not qualified to do the job.

I shouldn't call them idiots. They are just getting into a situation over their head and the Productions should have never let that happen. But I have run into several people who claim to be masters of all things DIT and when you start talking to them they don't have a clue.



Dusty
Local 600 DIT

 

[Elsie N]

I think the secret of how to use RED tools like RCX and Looks on a low budget shoot is to act like a low budget shoot. That is, don't pretend to be like a speed-dating big budget shoot, but plan for fewer setups during a session. After all, a low budget shoot is in essence trading time (man-hours) for money (cost for those extra qualified man hours).

 

[Alexander Ibrahim]

Alexander,

You did not have a DIT. You had a PA with no knowledge or experience claiming to be a DIT. Just because you give someone the responsibility of doing DIT work, does not mean they are a DIT. Those idiots really hurt Red. Producers that hire those guys think Red is a problem and it was the fact that the Producer hired someone not qualified to do the job.

I shouldn't call them idiots. They are just getting into a situation over their head and the Productions should have never let that happen. But I have run into several people who claim to be masters of all things DIT and when you start talking to them they don't have a clue.



Dusty
Local 600 DIT

100% Agreed of course.

What actually surprised me was how well the guy hid that he wasn't doing the job properly. It really wasn't until after we started having drive failures that and I assigned B camera crew to the job that we could dig in and discovered what was really happening.

Of course it was WAY too late by then.

So here is the thing ... outside of instituting procedures to make the ingest as automated as possible, paper logs so that I know someone (usually my 2AC) is checking in on every roll, and doing a ton of the work myself, I still haven't escaped the budget realm where that sort of person is what I get as a DIT - if I get anyone at all.

So basically, now I can plan around that circumstance instead of depending on someone to do the job.

Yeah, that limits what a Red can do for me on set. Limits is a bad word though.

Like I said its still a fantastic workflow. I think its better than 35mm even the way I am forced to use it in terms of immediacy, and it is of course exponentially more flexible than a paintbox on an F900.

Although I can't use looks on set like Jim suggests, they certainly make my life easier off set and in prep. Fantastic stuff. I love Red.

 

[Jarred Land]

John Schwartzman was just here talking to the REDUCATION class, and told a great story about how for the sizzle reel of SPIDERMAN they tried a few traditional methods of grading, and ended up throwing that all away and going back to the exact grade that John and Brook did on set with RCX.. using the actual RMD files... and not changing a thing except for a few power windows for exposure adjustments.

Pretty incredible stuff...

 

[David Birdy]

I'm going to go out on a limb here and say that REDCINE-X is probably the single most important RED tool next to the camera. For big jobs and little jobs. It was instrumental on every project I can think of. Knowing how to work with this tool, including Looks, is as important as learning how to work the camera. They go hand in hand. My original post isn't intended to teach anybody anything about RCX other than to inform the new RED user what a terrific and powerful tool RCX is... and what I do with Looks. Others will have a different view of how to use this tool, but useful it is... times a million.

Jim

I agree.. I was very happy to see you release REDCINE-X.. I think I took every update starting with build 90. Thank you for recognizing the need for this "1st" grade and "Look" program plus transcoding program and providing it to the world for free!

 

[Brook Willard]

John Schwartzman was just here talking to the REDUCATION class, and told a great story about how for the sizzle reel of SPIDERMAN they tried a few traditional methods of grading, and ended up throwing that all away and going back to the exact grade that John and Brook did on set with RCX.. using the actual RMD files... and not changing a thing except for a few power windows for exposure adjustments.

Pretty incredible stuff...

Heheh, it looked beautiful too. I wish I could show you guys how amazing this stuff looks right out of RCX.

 

[paulherrin]

I really can't wait for Epic WiFi module so the DIT can tweek looks right on camera. That will be like having a wireless Truelight system sending metadata to camera, ut a lot more control. the iPad app at NAB is going in the right direction.

so this is already a for sure thing? that's so awesome.

 

[AnthonyFlores]

IMHO, many people (especially non Redusers) underestimate or unaware of all the incredible value Red delivers for FREE long after the sale is made. This is unprecedented stuff ....

 

[Stephen Strangways]

I have a basic look I apply to everything - it sets REDcolor2 and REDgamma2, boosts the contrast and saturation, with everything else unchecked so those all stay at the camera defaults. I have two more optional looks, one that drops the shadow setting when I need the blacks lower, and one that shifts the tint to a "minus green" setting perfect for an LED light that's being used at times. From there, most shots look fantastic as long as the white balance was correct when it was shot, but if not, I'll create another look with the white balance (and perhaps tint) needed to correct a bunch of shots, and apply it to all of them at once. It's a fast way to do a nice grade for dailies and editorial.

When the edit is locked, I have a look that resets the saturation, contrast, and shadow settings, along with curves and LGG just in case, but keeps the WB and tint as set during shooting or my first-pass correction. That gives me a shot with the perfect WB to start grading, along with getting me back to a more neutral image to start with, ensuring that I haven't clipped or crushed anything I want to save during a more precise grade.

REDCINE-X is a tremendously powerful and time-saving tool, provided you put a little thought into setting up and using looks.

 

[Billy Summers]

John Schwartzman was just here talking to the REDUCATION class, and told a great story about how for the sizzle reel of SPIDERMAN they tried a few traditional methods of grading, and ended up throwing that all away and going back to the exact grade that John and Brook did on set with RCX.. using the actual RMD files... and not changing a thing except for a few power windows for exposure adjustments.

Pretty incredible stuff...

Loving this style! Reminds me of cooking a meal at home that tastes better than an overpriced restaurant from down the street.

BOOM!

 

[Christopher Barrett]

Yeah, the unexpected Schwartzman drop-in was pretty awesome. He was so geeked out over Epic! I thoroughly enjoyed that... Tomorrow begins two days with Cioni getting into the meat of files. Psyched!

 

[Marc Wielage]

I'm always creating looks on set so I'm surprised to hear any kind of negativity towards doing it. I can understand the concerns about a non calibrated monitor but at the end of the day many shoots don't pass over the looks to post anyway so a lot of stuff created on set is just to push and pull the boundaries and show the DoP and Director just how much more leverage they have for their image.

Very wise choice.

Ballpark looks are fine, and I think that works for 90% of most shows. I just wince when I hear people talking about DPs tweaking every single take of every single scene...

I've worked on a half-dozen Red projects where people asked, "can you show me the look I had on-set," and we pop in the metadata and everybody groans. I tell them, "bring in the monitor you used, and I bet it's the same."

In some cases, we were able to use their looks with a global color correction and get them there. In others, we had no choice but to throw the looks away, but because of the range of the picture, we got what they wanted fairly quickly.

I should emphasize this was with the Red One over the past couple of years, and I don't doubt that the Epic is better and that things are easier and more transparent today. And I'm a big fan of the concept of non-destructive metadata looks. Having the ability to get to the Raw material is extremely useful in post.

 

[Paul Nordin]

I just wince when I hear people talking about DPs tweaking every single take of every single scene...

Well, I dont know why a DP crafting a shot should make you wince?! The ability to tweak and tease an image in-camera to something with style and impact is one of the things that separates good DPs from average ones.