Looking to "upgrade" from my fs700 & odyssey 7q. Advice?

[Ron Michaels]

Hey everyone,

Im an indie filmmaker. I do shorts and looking to do my own feature in the near future. I currently own an fs700r paired with an odyssey 7q but was thinking it may be time to get a new camera. The fs700 has been been a great camera for me. As im sure most of you well know, with the odyssey I can shoot 4k raw and slog2 giving me a very decent image by todays standards. Not to mention the built in ND's and pretty decent low light capability. However it is a bit cumbersome and there seem to be some decent options out there in the $3000 to $4500 price range nowadays. I was thinking about getting an FS5 or maybe an Ursa mini 4.6k? Or perhaps I should still stick with what I have? Ive done some google searches to research but I'd figured I would run by you guys/gals as I always get good advice here . So, thoughts? Any advice is always appreciated! Thanks again.

 

[David Peterson]

Of course if you're posting in reduser then you're going to get people suggesting REDs (wellll... if anybody else than me replies! ).

However the RED ONE is the only camera from RED inside your budget range. And that I'd regard personally as mostly a backwards step overall from your current set up.

The next step up would be the RED Raven, but that is much much more expensive.

So what are your best options at around your price point you're looking at?

There are lots of very capable stills cameras these days with 10bit recording (even if only with external recording, but the new Atomos Ninja V makes this very affordable and even more importantly... compact! Always hated being forced to use a 7" monitor as a camera operator, as 7" is better suited for your focus puller or as a portable director's monitor):

Nikon Z6 (there is also the Z7, but the Z6 is cheaper and better suited for us filmmakers). You get a vistavision (full frame) sensor with 4K 10bit, log, IBIS, lovely Nikon color science, and good autofocus.

Panasonic GH5 (packed full of great features for filmmakers: waveform monitoring, DMW-XLR1 accessory, IBIS, unlimited recording, 10bit 4K 30fps internal, 4K 60fps slow motion, great battery life, no overheating, etc)

Panasonic GH5S (a7S level lowlight! Plus the first ever stills camera to implement timecode, although a bit iffy).

Fujifilm X-H1 (10bit 4K log footage! With lovely Fujifilm color science).

These are all so very cheap that you'd still be left with lots of money in your budget to buy an Atomos Ninja V and heaps of accessories, such as I like:

https://www.smallrig.com/smallrig-vct-14-shoulder-plate-1954.html

https://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/1350081-REG/yelangu_m2_matte_box.html

https://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/prod...kit6_firecrest_100mm_4x4_nd_3_filter_2_4.html

etc

However, if for whatever reason a stills camera is not your cup of tea, then what are your options?

I'd say they are:

URSA Mini Pro (bulkier than your FS700, but in a less awkward package which won't need an external recorder)

Sony FS5 (much much nicer set up if you only wish to shoot 8bit, but for better than that you're still mostly just as awkward as a FS700 set up).

Secondhand FS7 / F5 (or even F55/F65! Some are going for shockingly cheap prices).

Kinefinity Terra 4K (or the new Kinefinity Mavo).

Canon C200 (not a fan, it has no middle ground for a codec between raw and 8bit. And lacks various features like timecode. Plus I don't like being somewhat stuck with EF mount)

RED Raven (permanently stuck with an EF mount, and the most pricey option here! Once you've built up the whole kit)


But in conclusion, if you're happy with your FS700's 4K raw set up then you might want to sit on it for another 18 months and see what develops?

As the FS700 is almost an abnormality in how good it still is for 2018. And who knows what new cameras might be coming out in the future, and as time goes by you will see secondhand prices of these cameras (FS7/GH5S/Raven/etc) fall even further and you might be able to grab yourself a steal of a bargain.

 

[Ron Michaels]

Really appreciate the detailed reply! Yes indeed it seems I should stick with my fs700 for the time being. I felt I wasn't really up to date as I haven't looked into some of the new gear for the past 2 years. However, based on the info you gave me and the research I've been doing, I can't really see a reason to upgrade my current setup for my particular purposes. I was really intrigued by the Ursa mini 4.6k, but what benefits it has are minimal compared to what I already have. I wish I could shoot prores 4444 and maybe have a better rolling shutter but I don't think thats enough to make me make the switch. Again thanks for the input, I always get up to date info on here!

 

[Cameron K]

I wish I could shoot prores 4444 ...

I'd like to too, but don't forget the new Convergent Design 7Q+ firmware approves Samsung EVO 1tb SSDs. Last ones I bought were $235 and getting cheaper. I can fit 50 minutes of FS700R Sony 4K Slog2 12bit raw on one of those. It may not be everything, but as David said, it is... "almost an abnormality in how good it still is for 2018."

 

[David Peterson]

Really appreciate the detailed reply! Yes indeed it seems I should stick with my fs700 for the time being. I felt I wasn't really up to date as I haven't looked into some of the new gear for the past 2 years. However, based on the info you gave me and the research I've been doing, I can't really see a reason to upgrade my current setup for my particular purposes. I was really intrigued by the Ursa mini 4.6k, but what benefits it has are minimal compared to what I already have. I wish I could shoot prores 4444 and maybe have a better rolling shutter but I don't think thats enough to make me make the switch. Again thanks for the input, I always get up to date info on here!

I own a Sony PMW-F3 which outputs 4:4:4, but from the research I did, I felt the small % increase over 422 wasn't truly worth it for the cost/size increase. At least not for my purposes.

But everyone is different in their needs/wants.

So it is worth looking hard at your own personal situation.

If you're shooting often enough, and for high value clients, then the cost spread out over 18 months for buying a FS7mk2 or Scarlet-W might very well be small enough that the gains of switching camera bodies makes it all worth it for you.

For me, I'm first a soundie and only second a camera op / "DoP", so I'm struggling to even justify a FS700 / R1 / 1st gen URSA Mini! So long as people don't demand 4K or slow motion, then using a couple of Sony PMW-F3 is still a very nice low budget set up for me!

Instead of buying a new "A Cam", maybe pick up a Panasonic GH5S / Fujfilm X-T3 / Nikon Z6 instead as a very capable B Cam and specifically for gimbal shots? As the long length of the FS700 makes it tricky to put on a gimbal.

 

[paulcurtis]

I came from a fs700 + O7Q to an Epic-W. I love my Epic and you'd have to prise it out of my cold dead heads. However that fs700 combination is actually really good. I'd take RAW from an fs700 over an fs7 because it's slightly different and if you process it properly then it can produce fantastic results.

The reason i'm saying is is that you have to consider the cost of the eco-system as a whole. You're looking at similar data rates as you're getting now (well a bit less really) but the mini mags are much more expensive. Batteries are more expensive, everything is and for that budget i think you'd struggle.

The fs5 is super neat as well, just because i was playing with one yesterday and that kind of lightweight camera opens up options like Ronin S and so on.

If you're shooting a feature, with some kind of budget and you have a larger crew, with directors monitors, focus pullers and so on then the Red ecosystem will be faster, more efficient and get you better results. If you're one man banding it and can work slower than the fs700 will work fine, 4K RAW with a decent dynamic range - buy some lights instead.

cheers
Paul

 

[Brian Timmons]

Really appreciate the detailed reply! Yes indeed it seems I should stick with my fs700 for the time being. I felt I wasn't really up to date as I haven't looked into some of the new gear for the past 2 years. However, based on the info you gave me and the research I've been doing, I can't really see a reason to upgrade my current setup for my particular purposes. I was really intrigued by the Ursa mini 4.6k, but what benefits it has are minimal compared to what I already have. I wish I could shoot prores 4444 and maybe have a better rolling shutter but I don't think thats enough to make me make the switch. Again thanks for the input, I always get up to date info on here!

If Prores Raw get's adopted by Odyssey your setup will have even better life and will be MUCH easier
on your storage and workflow.

Brian Timmons
BRITIM/MEDIA

 

[paulcurtis]

If Prores Raw get's adopted by Odyssey your setup will have even better life and will be MUCH easier
on your storage and workflow.

Brian Timmons
BRITIM/MEDIA

Nope that wouldn't be a good idea. The RAW coming out of the fs700 is compressed at source. ProRes RAW is also compressed so you are doubling up on compression immediately. That's why the O7Q outputs uncompressed DNG files. You can however use a offline app like slimraw and losslessly compress those DNGs by 30 to 50% for storage but that lossless compression i don't think can be done real time on the recorder.

cheers
Paul

 

[Ron Michaels]

I'd like to too, but don't forget the new Convergent Design 7Q+ firmware approves Samsung EVO 1tb SSDs."

Agreed. Ive been using the 512gb Evo's. Cost, reliability, and performance are a no brainer. Prices are always getting better for storage, making the 1tb option viable.

 

[Ron Michaels]

If you're one man banding it and can work slower than the fs700 will work fine, 4K RAW with a decent dynamic range - buy some lights instead.

cheers
Paul

Bingo! I think that is exactly what I am going to do. Lights, and a few other accessories.