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  • Hey all, just changed over the backend after 15 years I figured time to give it a bit of an update, its probably gonna be a bit weird for most of you and i am sure there is a few bugs to work out but it should kinda work the same as before... hopefully :)

Looking for FCP / Color / RED ROCKET workflow suggestions

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BigLu

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This movie was handed over to me as is.
Feature length movie 1.5 hrs
Picture locked.
Edited in FCP using ProRes LT files.
1.2TB of RED raw footage which it was pulled from.

I want to transcode the R3Ds to ProRes 422HQ
Relink back in FCP make 100% sure that it matches the original cut using LT files.

Send these new HQ files to Color, grade it. send back to FCP and output.

What are some of the latest options in successful workflows.
I am borrowing a REDRocket, im just not familiar with how to use it yet.

Thank you in advanced with any new workflow suggestions.
Luis Flores Jr
 
HI
Sorry if this is off track but why do suggest 422 and why not 444.

Tanya
 
I only use ProRes 4444 when using something that can take advantage of the alpha channel, normally green screen footage.
Other than that I dont see the benefit of using 4444 when grading footage which is going to BluRay at best.
 
Hi
Dont you loose a lot of colour information when you dropfrom 444 to 422.
Cant Bluray show that extra colour quality ?.
I thought Bluray = mpeg4 = H264 and this supports 4.4.4 croma in Hi 4.4.4 PP
Isnt it better to drop down after colour grading if you want to.
sorry if this sounds silly.
Tanya
 
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Until now Blu-ray is only 8 bit 4:2:0, far less than ProRes HQ at 10 bit 4:2:2. Unless you didn't make a first-light and need massive corrections in final grading ProRes 422 is plenty enough for Blu-ray or HDTV.
 
Uli Plank said:
Until now Blu-ray is only 8 bit 4:2:0, far less than ProRes HQ at 10 bit 4:2:2. Unless you didn't make a first-light and need massive corrections in final grading ProRes 422 is plenty enough for Blu-ray or HDTV.
Click to expand...

Tanya is correct. Grading from 4:2:2 is tantamount to always doing half debayer or shooting everything in 2k. Even when deliverables are only HD, we all know, that doing those things isn't a good idea. By the same token, by utilizing only 4:2:2, you're leaving half of color information out. 4:2:2 is a form of a color compression, just like the bayer pattern, where only green has full color resolution and, incidentally, it has nothing to do with the alpha channel like it was suggested by Lu. So, unless all you're doing only primary grades, the moment you need to do any secondary grades or keying, you will immediately ran into a problem, mainly noise Personally, I don't even like grading from compressed material like Prores. When possible, I always prefer grading with properly debayered Log DPX or RAW R3D material. "Good enough" isn't something I practice in my work. Color reduction i.e. 4:2:0 for the Blue Ray should be done at the very end and after the color grade.
 
jake blackstone said:
the moment you need to do any secondary grades or keying, you will immediately ran into a problem, mainly noise
Click to expand...

This cooresponds with my findings as well. Once secondaries start to stack up in the grade, having that extra color information -does- make a discernable difference.
 
Hi
As far as I know croma 4:4:4 has been and is possible in Blu-ray in a number of configurations.
Some people say there are not so many players about that take advantage of this but
I think the new ones do(please correct me if I an wrong).
Here is a link regarding Blu-ray and croma 4:4:4 you have to read it all and scroll down.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/H.264/MPEG-4_AVC
Tanya
 
H.264 as an encoder can do much higher quality, but AFAIK there is no Blu-ray player (yet?) to use it.

I have to admit that under critical conditions ProRes 4444 can make a difference, but if your shooting ratio is high I'd test some footage which might need secondaries if it's worth the extra resources in speed and space.
 
Uli Plank said:
H.264 as an encoder can do much higher quality, but AFAIK there is no Blu-ray player (yet?) to use it.

I have to admit that under critical conditions ProRes 4444 can make a difference, but if your shooting ratio is high I'd test some footage which might need secondaries if it's worth the extra resources in speed and space.
Click to expand...

Bad idea again. Your deliverables shouldn't dictate your working color depth. Deliverables can change or at some point your client may decide to spend some money on a new final grading on the new Resolve on a Mac:lol: or on a filmout and then what you'd do? Just grade everything at the maximum color depth and adjust it at the end accordingly.
 
It's all a question of balancing time, money and quality. I'm fully aware that ProRes 4444 is better than 422 and uncompressed is still be a tad better again. From the tone of the initial questions I was under the impression that money is a constraint…

But there are film-out services printing from HDCAM, and I've seen such material on a real big screen ( Cinemaxx ). Not too bad, and I doubt ProRes 422 wouldn't be up to that.
 
Why are you re-transcoding the files? If you were given a Picture locked file, you should be able to conform (using clipfinder, or Find-Replace All -Manual method) and send the r3d's to color ;)

Re-transcoding all that data is unnecessary.
 
Hi.
I believe its not just about not needing the extra colour information that 4:4: can provide.
422HQ can be fine for certain aplications but can cause problems with artifacting if not used properly.
To chose a work flow depends on a lot of things for example :
Type of film project :ie is there a lot colour, a lot of subject or camera movement.
also what was the original camera shooting specs ???.
You say its for Blu-ray but thats as long as a piece of string I believe that the final
file destination is important but Its always best not to downgrade quality in the early stages unless you are sure or have to.
Tanya
 
David Battistella said:
May I ask why you would not want to access all of the r3d data directly and render out to what ever codec you want? Way more control in the RED tab of the color room.

Why would you grade baked in prores over direct r3d?

It's how I graded this film.

http://www.nfb.ca/film/bryan_adams_bare_bones/

David

workflow here:
http://reduser.net/forum/showpost.php?p=480612&postcount=1
Click to expand...


David,
I for one like using the FCP and color native workflow....HOWEVER, when doing the transcodes, then i don't have use of the rocket card as far as i know. So that blows me out of the water when using the method you suggested. So going from R3d and Redcine-x then to prores4444 out, then back intoFCP and color for minor tweaks seems a fast and more conieniant method. I don't see any dramatic loss of color/data when working with prores4444 out for tv.

....you have another way of utilizing rocket card in the FCP/Color native R3d workflow?
 
I'd stay away from the ProRes4444 workflow if possible. ProRes4444 has some gamma shifting issues.

Working directly from the Red files after using clipfinder is one very solid way to go as some of the guys here have already mentioned.

I personally find the red footage in Color to be a tad bit too slow especially if a client will be sitting in on the session.

Two decent alternatives are to transcode to DXP or Uncompressed 422 QT in color. This will give you a decent balance of performance and color information to work with.

That's what I do for short form projects. The transcoding time may not be very attractive to you because you are working on a feature length project. In that case I advise working directly from the Red files in color.
 
Working directly with R3D in Color has two disadvantages:

– You don't have full access to the source DR, even if you switch of "Broadcast Safe"
– The secondaries qualify from RAW, not from the primaries

I don't really care for a gamma shift with ProRes 4444. Once I'm in Color and monitoring properly, it's consistent.
 
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