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Lock Epic in Scarlet Mode for rentals? Just a suggestion to the Red Team

A

Aaron Bernakevitch

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I was wondering the feasibility and probability that we could get Red to write code so that epic-m and epic-x owners/ renters and rental houses could lock their epics in a scarlet mode. (ie a software lock that disables all of extra features that you get from owning a epic vs a scarlet)

I think based on the huge success of Scarlet and the anticipation from all of the DSLR and indie filmmakers, the scarlet will be huge. I also imagine that a lot of productions (sans big budget movies) would rather go the scarlet then epic route based on costing vs quality (ie what the camera can do). Being an epic owner myself it would be great to stay competitive and not low ball our epic rentals based on the fact that we knew we would loose rentals against scarlet owner/ operators.

This is a feature I would pay for. I know that Red offers most of their upgrades pro-bono so if it went that way it would be great as well.

I anticipate a flood of scarlet's in the filmmaking community, which will also force the rentals of the scarlet to low prices. For a filmmakers to rent a scarlet (very inexpensively based on the surge of them on the market vs an epic where the rental value will stay fairly high) We may see many productions opt and go for a scarlet project.

Maybe I am speculating too much here but again it's only my 2 cents.

Red, thoughts?

Epic x/m owners, thoughts?
 
I don't see where this makes any sense at all... EPIC has a cost and a value specific to it and its features. For rentals, features typically have little to do with actual rental pricing, it's a matter of earning a return on your investment. EPIC should rent for an appropriate rate, why cripple its features just so you can send it out for less money? This will ultimately just invite others to attempt to hack or upload new firmware or attempt to open up the crippled features. If you feel you need to compete with Scarlet rentals or owner-operators, then your best choices are to focus on marketing the extra features and abilities you have to offer with EPIC and/ or buy a Scarlet brain so you can send out an appropriate package based on the customers' needs and budget.

I own a RED One, EPIC-M and EPIC-X. I'm somewhat interested in Scarlet, but I don't do much with rentals, in fact I'm trying to get away from rentals entirely. And I have plenty of cameras to work with, I don't need any more...

Anyway, just my $0.02...
 
Then, an already Scarlet flooded market would be more saturated with ´locked´Epics, thus lowering further more the price. From my point of view (soon to be Scarlet owner), I´d prefer to have the Epic crowd earn their money and let Scarlet owners earn our share of the market....just my two centimos ;/
 
Actually, I like the idea and there is no real downside.

For many years now rental rates for electronic cameras have been all out of whack in relation to the purchase price, so this is nothing new. Not to mention that in the next two months or so we will have at least 5 different pricing tiers of Epic-X/M owners (but same camera functionally) $58K M; $19.5 K stage 2 X; $10.5K Stage 3 X; and $34K puchasers before 12/31/2011 and whatever the raised price is after the 1st (I forget).

Once it's paid for there isn't much ongoing cost difference in owning an M/X/or scarlet so why not have the option so that when someone says "I don't want to pay $650 for your Epic, I can get a scarlet for $400 and I don't really need the extra features" you can say "fine, here it is in Scarlet mode" and see if they really mean it - rent at the scarlet price if it's true - or step them up to an Epic price if that is really what they wanted. The "scarlet mode lock option" puts the owner in control of what is really going on. Without it it is just a guessing game and more confusion in establishing rental prices.

And what's the downside? It should be an easy feature for Red to implement and if you don't ever want to rent your Epic at Scarlet prices, then you don't have to use it.

And BTW the same logic can work versus other 1080P cameras like the F3, new Canon, dSLRs, etc.
 
Peopple who want the scarlet, will rent the scarlet. People who want an epic will rent an epic.

Your epic is safe. The same way MX's haven't killed the epic market, the scarlet won't hurt the epic.

Its like, when I got my F3 and the fs100 came out. Same chip... just a different codec/less featurs. Know what happened? Demand for the f3 went UP. People realised the limitations and wanted the better camera.

Also..... you don't want "budget" nickel and dime types taking you 58k camera out for $400. Renting rates is also a gamble of costs (insurance, likely hood of mistreatment) vs profits (rates)
 
Timur Civan said:
Peopple who want the scarlet, will rent the scarlet. People who want an epic will rent an epic.

Your epic is safe. The same way MX's haven't killed the epic market, the scarlet won't hurt the epic.

Its like, when I got my F3 and the fs100 came out. Same chip... just a different codec/less featurs. Know what happened? Demand for the f3 went UP. People realised the limitations and wanted the better camera.

Also..... you don't want "budget" nickel and dime types taking you 58k camera out for $400. Renting rates is also a gamble of costs (insurance, likely hood of mistreatment) vs profits (rates)
Click to expand...

Extremely well put Timur. AS an Epic-M and X owner I agree with you. people who only need Scarlet features will rent Scarlet, but often people don;t think they NEED certain features and then on-set realize or change their minds. Having flexibility on-set is key and you may see more people renting Epics for the added functionality at their fingers.

Jason
 
Timur Civan said:
Peopple who want the scarlet, will rent the scarlet. People who want an epic will rent an epic.

Your epic is safe. The same way MX's haven't killed the epic market, the scarlet won't hurt the epic.

Its like, when I got my F3 and the fs100 came out. Same chip... just a different codec/less featurs. Know what happened? Demand for the f3 went UP. People realised the limitations and wanted the better camera.

Also..... you don't want "budget" nickel and dime types taking you 58k camera out for $400. Renting rates is also a gamble of costs (insurance, likely hood of mistreatment) vs profits (rates)
Click to expand...

I was only using those numbers as an example.

People rent cameras for a purpose and most that are likely to rent either camera are going to be fully aware that the Scarlet is just an epic with limited frame rates/redcode/HDRx levels (or vice versa).

And I didn't say anything about "nickel and dime" types. I don't intend to rent to anyone that I don't have a high level of trust in, but the truth is MOST serious, experienced producers and shooters will ask for better rates and in fact good, regular customers tend to automatically get substantial discounts from their vendors - but it doesn't make them "nickel and dime" types.

If Jeff Kilgroe calls me up and says "Hey, Mike I'm coming to Ft. Lauderdale and need a second camera - my rental house has a scarlet they'll rent me for $450 but if you can match it I'll rent from you" then if I had a "scarlet mode" option there is no question I would take it. I'd probably do it with my epic anyway, but the scarlet mode would help everyone feel more secure that they aren't being taken advantage of, AND still gives the option of a possible upgrade: e.g.:

"Hey, mike we are out here shooting and there's a shot that would be pretty nice at 4K 120fps, how 'bout an extra $150 to unlock the epic mode"

While if I don't have the "Scarlet mode" I either have to turn away the rental or accept that I'm taking the $450 for the full epic mode, no upgrade possible because I have already given the full function for the lower rate.

Again, I just don't see any down side to a "scarlet mode" - if you don't like it don't use it.
 
At some point could licensing of specific features or as stated in this thread "de-licensing" be part of the modular mentality?
 
Lee Saxon said:
Why two if you're not doing rentals? That's a pretty big investment.
Click to expand...

I am not Jeff, but I also own an M and an X and do not rent. I purchased the M because I had some work I wanted to do and really wanted to do it on the EPIC. I have not decided on what I will do with the X long term. For now, I am shooting a lot of 3D material for an upcoming disc using the two.
 
If you spend $58k on a camera and then rent it out at rates appropriate to a $10k camera, Epic mk3 will be out before you make your money back...

If in your area Epic rentals will really be so scarce, and Scarlet rentals so plentiful, that my first statement isn't true...the smart move is probably to sell your Epic and get a Scarlet.
 
Trying to find a reason why this would be bad.. Still can't find one. I really like the idea of the client saying, this would be great at 300!! And once they enter that code you now just made another $1000... It's like drugs.. A little taste, and they will want more!!!

It's really done all the time with equip on an as used basis... Pull out a 12k, u pay..
 
I don't know if I would use this feature, and I doubt Red would create it. It's interesting. I can only speak from my experience, but the rental market is brutal.

We bought our Red to do our own projects for the most part. (If you buy an Epic or Scarlet and are expecting big rental revenue, you might be in for a shock.) We are constantly getting beaten up on rental rates. And these aren't just kids calling, but even large regional spots, producers are looking for cut rates. There are a lot of Reds out there.

My feeling is that Epic rental rates will drop some when they start shipping in larger numbers. And when Scarlet hits the market (in large numbers) the Epic rental rate will feel even more pressure. The Epic/Scarlet you buy should be able to earn its' own keep, on your projects. As I said, rental is brutal and can't be counted on, in my experience, to generate a lot of revenue.
 
Jeff Kilgroe said:
I don't see where this makes any sense at all... EPIC has a cost and a value specific to it and its features. For rentals, features typically have little to do with actual rental pricing, it's a matter of earning a return on your investment. EPIC should rent for an appropriate rate, why cripple its features just so you can send it out for less money? This will ultimately just invite others to attempt to hack or upload new firmware or attempt to open up the crippled features. If you feel you need to compete with Scarlet rentals or owner-operators, then your best choices are to focus on marketing the extra features and abilities you have to offer with EPIC and/ or buy a Scarlet brain so you can send out an appropriate package based on the customers' needs and budget.

I own a RED One, EPIC-M and EPIC-X. I'm somewhat interested in Scarlet, but I don't do much with rentals, in fact I'm trying to get away from rentals entirely. And I have plenty of cameras to work with, I don't need any more...

Anyway, just my $0.02...
Click to expand...

Ditto.
 
This idea would result in a total waste of RED's time and resources. Maybe you should check your business model and rent back-hoes instead.
 
I like the concept, I just don't think that it will ever be put into practice. Arri is attempting to do a similar thing with their licensing of 120 fps per camera which allows a rental house to rent a 24fps camera or a high speed camera.
The red rental market is about to get bent over and ... well you know the rest and I don't think there is anything that we can do. Reduser has become scarletuser in the last couple of weeks and I fear that the rental market is going to be the same way.
 
Both sides make interesting points, but Jim & Jarred never want to see a confused producer holding Jim's camera saying "so it was just an Epic... but now it's a Scarlet... and for more money you can make it an Epic again?"

This is why Scarlet is called Scarlet and not Epic-S; this is why Scarlet is gray and Epic is black. Clear delineation.

To activate a Scarlet mode on the Epic would just add to the ridiculous confusion over Red workflow. Several times I've had to reassure folks that I've never had a problem with the Red; I have to tell them and re-tell them that myths and 2008 mistakes were been blown way out of proportion. Those people would react with confusion and distrust if you told them one camera can lock itself to 'become' another.

Also, if I had an Epic, I wouldn't want to advertise the fact that a few lines of code can make it a Scarlet...
 
Love the discussion, good stuff gents.

Valid points on both ends.

Again like we all know, people, producers other filmmakers always low ball on rentals and most of the time I would rather let my camera collect dust then send it out inexpensively. But if I could disable those features that makes it cost the extra $$$ I wouldn't feel as bad sending it out and still be able to generate some income.


I realize that most owner/ operators income is based on project and not solely rentals. Of my revenue over the last 2 years less then 15% was just on rentals, but when producers can't afford to go red. I still do the gig on my canon DSLR, with a large sigh. So if i could come with my locked scarlet I could still get some great images, make some more money on the project, but I just wouldn't be able to shoot any highspeed or footage with less compressions but for lots of the Music Videos I shoot that are destined for the web that wouldn't bother me in the slightest.

Considering all of the X-upgraders where there in the beginning and supported the company, I thought Red might consider this if there was enough demand.

Anyways good to get the ball rolling and hear every bodies opinion
 
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