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LIST of Lens Sets that cover 6k

Will Keir

Will Keir

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Updated. Dec 16th, 2012.

Did anyone start a thread on this subject yet?

CINE Lenses

K35s will cover 6k.
CP2 will cover 6k.
New CP2 Super Speeds cover 6k.
Zeiss Super Speeds will cover 5k.
Zeiss Standard Speeds cover 5k, except the 16mm.
Super Baltars cover 5k.
RPP's cover 5K, except the 18mm.
Cooke Pancros cover 5k, even at 18mm.
Master Primes will cover 5k at 2.4:1 Widescreen.

All FULL FRAME stills glass.

1) Leica R
2) Zeiss ZE/ZF/CP2
3) Zeiss Contax
4) Canon L Series
5) Canon FD
6) Nikon G
7) Nikon AIS
8) Minolta Rokkor

MEDIUM FORMAT lenses

1) Hassleblad
2) Mamiya
3) Contax 645
4) Pentacon Six lenses
5) Leica S Medium format lenses
 
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Will Keir said:
Did anyone start a thread on this subject yet?

I know Zeiss Super Speeds will cover 5k.
K35s will cover 5k.
Zeiss Standard Speeds cover 5k except the 16mm.
Super Baltars cover 5k.

Glad to start a list if I can get some help. I can only go off of what people tell me and agree upon for now. I'm not a tech lens guy... yet.
Click to expand...

There is a big difference between covering and made to cover. You know what I mean?

Just saying I've seen some lenses that were not intended to cover larger sensors/film sizes, but do in terms of at-a-glance. But if you look carefully, they fall apart quite horribly (in cinema lens terms) on the edges in terms of increased CA, distortion, and if you look closely, noticeable minor vignetting, like many photography lenses.

Most people don't realize this, do tests to see, nor care. They just slap on a lens and see an image from corner to corner without major vignetting and announce it 5k ready or etc. Not true. That is my opinion however. So yeah, list a bunch of lenses that cover, but are we going to acknowledge how awful (and can we even quantify it easily?) the edges of our images are? Or if it 'covers', it works?
 
Ryan Patrick O'Hara said:
There is a big difference between covering and made to cover. You know what I mean?

Just saying I've seen some lenses that were not intended to cover larger sensors/film sizes, but do in terms of at-a-glance. But if you look carefully, they fall apart quite horribly (in cinema lens terms) on the edges in terms of increased CA, distortion, and if you look closely, noticeable minor vignetting, like many photography lenses.

Most people don't realize this, do tests to see, nor care. They just slap on a lens and see an image from corner to corner without major vignetting and announce it 5k ready or etc. Not true. That is my opinion however. So yeah, list a bunch of lenses that cover, but are we going to acknowledge how awful (and can we even quantify it easily?) the edges of our images are? Or if it 'covers', it works?
Click to expand...

Ryan you hit the nail on the head. Could not agree more.
 
I used to have a set of Zeiss Standards Mk2 T 2.1 . They were nice bit at the corners the wide angles were very soft. I used them on my Red 1 at the time, but when I purchased an Epic I sold them because for 5K their portholing (vignetting)(already on 4K) made them unusable for me. Especially the 24/28/32 had dramatic darkening in the corners. For general use not so bad but unusable for greenscreen or white limbo stuff. The corners not only darkened but also got a color shift.
 
Dragon sensor (15.8 X 30mm) required image circle of 33.906mm (diameter)

FF senor 24mm x 36mm, Image circle of at least 43mm diameter (shouldn't be a problem to cover 6K)
S35 sensor 24 X 18mm which covers only 31.1mm image circle
(Most medium and long cine lenses will cover 6K, Only wide angle lenses will not cover, But Keep in mind some S35 lenses do have a wider image field)
APS-C" sensor 15mm x 22.5mm (no go)
 
A reason why we are buying good FF 35mm glass. Leica R, Canon FD, K35 etc.
 
The wider Zeiss Standard's porthole at 4K wide open. The only 18mm Cooke lens that properly covers 5K is the Pancro. Most zooms have issues.
 
Take a good hard look at the 18mm Super Speed Mk3 at 5K Full Frame. May not be hard portholing, but there is noticeable vignetting/shading in the corners.
5K 2:1? No problem
 
Will Keir said:
What about Master Primes?
Click to expand...

Unclear if they will cover Dragon 6k.

Remember, Epic 5k has a "crop factor" of 1.3.
Dragon 6k is supposed to have a crop factor of 1.2, and will require a slightly larger image circle than before.

I've heard of some lens designs being re-optimized to cover Epic, so hopefully designers are planning ahead with an image circle healthy enough to cover Epic and beyond...
 
So let's stick to the old lenses that will receive a new design. Will Super Speeds work with 6k?

Nick Morrison said:
Unclear if they will cover Dragon 6k.

Remember, Epic 5k has a "crop factor" of 1.3.
Dragon 6k is supposed to have a crop factor of 1.2, and will require a slightly larger image circle than before.

I've heard of some lens designs being re-optimized to cover Epic, so hopefully designers are planning ahead with an image circle healthy enough to cover Epic and beyond...
Click to expand...
 
Any Full Frame Lens. Should Cover it. Zeiss Cp.2 Cover FF sensors..

Kwan Khan said:
Dragon sensor (15.8 X 30mm) required image circle of 33.906mm (diameter)

FF senor 24mm x 36mm, Image circle of at least 43mm diameter (shouldn't be a problem to cover 6K)
S35 sensor 24 X 18mm which covers only 31.1mm image circle
(Most medium and long cine lenses will cover 6K, Only wide angle lenses will not cover, But Keep in mind some S35 lenses do have a wider image field)
APS-C" sensor 15mm x 22.5mm (no go)
Click to expand...
 
Will, here is the difference between cover and made-to-cover...

All lenses make an image circle, inside of which is the rectangular format they were designed to cover. Outside of that rectangle, lens engineers didn't need to care about any of the 7 aberrations, or sharpness, or color shift. Designing for film, they also had a different set of considerations for color convergence--where the red, green and blue wavelengths reach the film plane.

All of this plays into what happens when you put the lens on a sensor that's larger than Super35mm film. All those uglies the lens designers shoved into the corners of the frame become apparent... now imagine when the cinema is 50' wide, or you're shooting a white cyc.

I am less concerned about what covers and more worried about what happens to our lenses when the sensor creates a "wider" field of view than intended. A 35mm lens renders a face slightly differently than a 40mm, and a lot differently than a 28 or even a 32mm. When the field of view on your 35 becomes like that of your 28, even if the lens "covers," you're doing something differently.

Arri makes Super 35mm sensors. Kodak makes 35mm film. Even Sony now makes Super 35mm sensors. I understand Red is chasing resolution but... certain DPs have shot with focal lengths they love for decades... I really, really hope Dragon has a "SUPER 35mm 5.22K" (or whatever the math is) option in the settings. I know we can dial in whatever frame size we like, but this just makes sense.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lens_(optics)#Aberrations
 
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Rokinon "Cine" lenses? Would they hold up, or the overall quality is a no-go?
 
Will Keir said:
What about Master Primes?
Click to expand...


They will cover in 2.4:1 aspect ratio. The image circle that I measured is about 31.1mm and this is where they are razor sharp. Slightly larger where they are still not vignetting.
 
great discussion guys!!!
another factor to consider is this:
For 4K delivery you need more res than 5k to have a truer 4k res (like 4k is 3k in reality...)
So....

What will be the EXACT S35 coverage resolution on the Dragon??
Someone says 5K but if you do the math I think it's a little too optimistic given the 1.2 of the 6K... maybe 4.5K??
What do you think?
 
Nick Gardner said:
"Crop factor" doesn't exist and is a concept born of simple minds.
Click to expand...


Objectively it does not exist, but subjectively there is a difference.

But put a FF Canon lens on a 5D, and compare that to the same lens on a Black magic Camera. If you can think of a better term to describe the difference between the two images then do let all of us simpletons know what we should be calling it instead.
 
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