Limited Raven upgrade to Dragon-X

[Phil Holland]

I know a few of the Raven peeps have been looking for an upgrade opportunity and there is a brief one.

Raven does not have an official upgrade path, which was announced from the very beginning, but Jarred is doing something special for those looking to step up.

Follow the instructions. It happens soon.

 

[Mestizo Devon]

Dragon X

 

[Josh Becker]

This inevitably makes me look like an asshole because I know this is a gesture that Jarred didn’t have to do, but I can’t help but feel a bit bad for the people who took Jarred at his word about “no upgrades”—there are probably people who sold their Raven brains for far less than the $6500 in value they would have gotten from this trade-in. Hell, I bet there were a lot of people who paid extra to upgrade to a Scarlet-W back when the Raven came out because that “future upgrades” carrot was dangled in front of them.

In fact, the last few camera releases have mysteriously re-opened upgrades for people who were told that if they didn’t upgrade the *last time* that they’d be left behind forever! It’s getting harder to believe the promise/threat of the upgrade stuff. And I think a lot of customers are getting tired of the unpredicatability. (I know, tech industry, things change, etc. but no one else utilizes the sunk cost fallacy to such an extent, IMO)

 

[Phil Holland]

I'm certain it's a tricky balance, but RED always seems to find a way to make things work. Raven is/was a particular pickle, but Jarred listen to a few owners who want to move up in the ecosystem and continue that journey.

Certainly sometimes it makes sense to sell a body for various reasons. This is for people who have that Raven and want to go to a full future-path oriented DSMC2 body. Plus having IPP2 in camera is a big deal at this point.

The real mind blower for me was the RED One offer to DSMC2 a while back. That was unheard of.

 

[Brent Carter]

Josh, this is a true swap, not an upgrade. And, as Jarred stated, we lose money on every person who takes him up on this offer. Which is why Finance, hell, even I, said not to do it.

But Jarred felt strongly about it. It is for a small window and still is a big step for a lot of Raven owerns as far as cash outlay. But to get into DSMC2 moving forward, some people will indeed go for it.

Oh, wait, forgot this is not official, so forget that I replied...

 

[Tim Morten]

Not a Raven owner, but this kind if consistent commitment to doing right by the community is one of the things that I appreciate most about Red and its leaders.

 

[Kevin D'Haeze]

Just curious what the hardware and/or firmware support looks like in the future for those who keep their Raven and don’t update?

 

[Luca Perin]

I'm tempted to upgrade but with dsmc3 near the corner mmm I think I'll save some money and wait or buy a GEMINI as A/night camera. Good deal though!

 

[Mark Phelan]

It's a great offer and does show that RED has a heart. Time and again we've seen them bend their own rules to help people out. Great way to run a business.

 

[Kevin D'Haeze]

It's a great offer and does show that RED has a heart. Time and again we've seen them bend their own rules to help people out. Great way to run a business.

I agree with the leniency in upgrade paths over the years. My only wish is that there were still a path within the same budget tier. Raven owners certainly factored the (relatively) low cost when purchasing it - as a nice BCAM, a gimbal cam, or as a primary cam. This upgrade path, while very generous, requires an investment exceeding the cost of the brain they already purchased, just to stay current in the RED world. So, 4K4ALL "affordable" becomes 4K4ALL "affordable x 2".

I've got a Raven with under 40 hours on it. It doesn't make sense for me to double my investment cost. If I had beaten the heck out of it, and racked up 600 hours, then it might make sense for me to swap it out. But, I'll just keep it and continue to make beautiful pictures with it.

So, cool opportunity for folks. Kudos to Jared. But also hoping there will be longterm tech support for those who hang on to their little bird.

 

[Peter Noble]

Red have assured me that firmware updates will still apply to Raven. They seem to suggest several years at least. As for hardware repair they seemed confident but I’m sure until the las warranty expires. I have no worries.
I will not do this swap because justifying another purchase in such a short time is a step too far...and though Raven footage like all Reds create are amazing this world is changing fast. The mirrorless cameras are no replacement but by 2020 raw will be standard and with full 4K at 60-120, stabilization and with low light AF. Sony will answer the Nikon Z as the heavy new pro Panasonic still/video already has. However, the announcement of a new Red rental shows hope for a sleeker future. Autofocus on the Raven is so bad I used my Z7 to film a snow storm through the window. Not raw footage but AF/EV and impressive stabilization was surprisingly good. Some directors are clearly wanting handheld ... Soderberg used an iPhone 7...not great and clearly the technology is not available yet for 5-8k films shot with a pocket camera but disruption it’s coming. Then there’s the issue of streaming where HD is still the norm.
The future will be for smaller and lighter and faster still/video kits at a third or less of any Red/kit.
I fully understand the FOMO of not swapping out the Raven. It does offer sensor true upgrades and that’s unusual. I’m impressed and might have paid up.... I keep thinking of all my press photographer friends out of work because the media is happy with an iPhone.
It’s just my long winded opinion.

 

[Phil Holland]

So just for clarity and from an experience perspective. For years now RED stated they are committed to the DSMC2 body type until a minimum of 2020. That doesn't mean your camera stops working on New Year's Eve or anything, it means that the next real efforts and offerings will likely become available and the focus by 2020.

Following what happened to the OG RED One and DSMC bodies, continued firmware development occurred for a hot minute as the future/current bodies became the primary focus for the company. So don't expect a massive amount of development, but there were notable firmware releases later than you'd expect.

The interesting bit fore is the cameras work pretty nicely now, so outside of a new menu concept for example, it's not exactly clear what the future holds

Either way the bodies will continue to be supported until servicing becomes nearly impossible or practical, it took a while for that to occur as well with the previous generations.

 

[David Peterson]

Josh, this is a true swap, not an upgrade. And, as Jarred stated, we lose money on every person who takes him up on this offer. Which is why Finance, hell, even I, said not to do it.

So as it is a straight swap, what will happen to all those swapped in RED Raven bodies?? Will we be seeing soon (ish) a sale of "battle tested Ravens"??

 

[Kevin D'Haeze]

For years now RED stated they are committed to the DSMC2 body type until a minimum of 2020. That doesn't mean your camera stops working on New Year's Eve or anything, it means that the next real efforts and offerings will likely become available and the focus by 2020.

Thanks for the input, Phil. I appreciate it. The RED products are quality-built, and as much as I like to chase specs and performance like the rest of us... the Raven is one of those tools in the kit that I feel deserves longevity. Built like a tank, amazing RED raw image quality (yeah, not 8K and not a Gemini... but still), and frankly feels streamlined. I feel RED had the right card to play in bringing a lower-cost brain to the market. I plan to follow along in the 2020+ equipment journey, but dang... that Raven is a sweet little add-on to the arsenal. Let's keep it alive for a while. It kicks ass over anything else in its price range.

 

[jordan levy]

This inevitably makes me look like an asshole because I know this is a gesture that Jarred didn’t have to do, but I can’t help but feel a bit bad for the people who took Jarred at his word about “no upgrades”—there are probably people who sold their Raven brains for far less than the $6500 in value they would have gotten from this trade-in. Hell, I bet there were a lot of people who paid extra to upgrade to a Scarlet-W back when the Raven came out because that “future upgrades” carrot was dangled in front of them.

In fact, the last few camera releases have mysteriously re-opened upgrades for people who were told that if they didn’t upgrade the *last time* that they’d be left behind forever! It’s getting harder to believe the promise/threat of the upgrade stuff. And I think a lot of customers are getting tired of the unpredicatability. (I know, tech industry, things change, etc. but no one else utilizes the sunk cost fallacy to such an extent, IMO)

actually, this is a completely wrong perspective, because when it was 4k4all, this was a call to attention for a way for people to get into the red ecosystem. That was my main point in making the purchase not even knowing what it was going to be, but the cheapest way into red, and once you are into red you are taken care of for life, that was the perception of every one i know buying their first red camera with the 4k4all promise. i personally got about 4 young dir/sps to buy in as well. it wasnt until scarlet-w was announced and raven orders went crazy and the price had to be raised because it was too good of deal (and it was!), then and only then the story changed, ravens got back ordered, but if you wanted scarlet-w you can change right now and get it sooner and have an an upgradable camera. i remember this like it was yesterday because i was like the main complainer and it was my first time even on red forums actively and i was like what? so now my camera cant be upgraded? oh well, i dont care what they say now, red ones are being upgraded, so there is hope. im sure jarred remembers every minute of this, so that's im sure why he is giving this opportunity.
unfortunately or fortunately for me, i wont be doing the upgrade, i believe it's too much money just to get into a slightly bigger sensor and compression situation, the raven suits my personal projects fine and actually keeps me from going down the rabbit hole of PL lenses again at this point in my life. Id rather have two ravens then one dragon-x. jarred and brent go through this every time they try to help a certain class of owners, all the other classes get pissed. vicious circle.

 

[Josh Becker]

actually, this is a completely wrong perspective, because when it was 4k4all, this was a call to attention for a way for people to get into the red ecosystem. That was my main point in making the purchase not even knowing what it was going to be, but the cheapest way into red, and once you are into red you are taken care of for life, that was the perception of every one i know buying their first red camera with the 4k4all promise. i personally got about 4 young dir/sps to buy in as well. it wasnt until scarlet-w was announced and raven orders went crazy and the price had to be raised because it was too good of deal (and it was!), then and only then the story changed, ravens got back ordered, but if you wanted scarlet-w you can change right now and get it sooner and have an an upgradable camera. i remember this like it was yesterday because i was like the main complainer and it was my first time even on red forums actively and i was like what? so now my camera cant be upgraded? oh well, i dont care what they say now, red ones are being upgraded, so there is hope. im sure jarred remembers every minute of this, so that's im sure why he is giving this opportunity.
unfortunately or fortunately for me, i wont be doing the upgrade, i believe it's too much money just to get into a slightly bigger sensor and compression situation, the raven suits my personal projects fine and actually keeps me from going down the rabbit hole of PL lenses again at this point in my life. Id rather have two ravens then one dragon-x. jarred and brent go through this every time they try to help a certain class of owners, all the other classes get pissed. vicious circle.

Right, but what I'm trying to clarify is this: There is a dichotomy here. One on hand, you have RED users like yourself in this post stating matter-of-factly, "RED takes care of you for life". But then we also have direct communication from RED, on almost every single upgrade cycle: "If you don't upgrade now, you'll get left behind." (i.e. you're not taken care of "for life" but rather each upgrade cycle based on a condition). Of course, the thing that muddies the water is when offers like this come up unexpectedly that simultaneously reinforce the idea you put forward ("taken care of for life") while contradicting their own policy (which many people took as gospel--who can blame them?). So then you end up with guys who upgraded to Weapon earlier than they wanted because they'd be "left behind" while MX/RED One/Raven guys still get offered great upgrade prices TODAY (albeit, MX/RO through B&H right now to D-X), and RED users just tell them "well RED didn't FORCE you to upgrade, that was a decision you made yourself!" (but RED did leverage the sunk-cost fallacy and used the "left-behind" sales tactic for added pressure...)

All I am saying is that anytime you mess with peoples' expectations you're bound to upset people.

Also, I remember the Raven-ScarletW-EpicW cascade, too. Lots of people waiting on cameras and upgrading to get a camera sooner (myself included, original preorder Day 1 Scarlet-W Dec 2015, took delivery of Epic-W on launch day Oct 2016.)

 

[Kwan Khan]

I plan to follow along in the 2020+ equipment journey, but dang... that Raven is a sweet little add-on to the arsenal. Let's keep it alive for a while. It kicks ass over anything else in its price range.

Agreed, I have 4 Pieces and keeping them All until they ...., Absolute workhorses 2018 and+ along with other Brains