Limewire owes $1Billion. And BP owes less than $100M.

[Sid Idris]

Wow, So the OIL companies have a $100M trigger to drive the price of OIL up by the Billions... So BP gets through this & pays their $100M fine and in return collects Billions due to a higher market price???? It's Operation Iraq Liberation all over again.

 

[Alex G. Cohn]

The U.S. Government really does need to intervene. Send in the Navy, kick BP out of the Gulf, and bring in engineers to stop the leak. Nobody should be worried about the best ways to bring the oil production back online. Containment should be the ONLY concern.

It would be if this was a Nuclear meltdown. This is no different.

 

[rod bradley]

Just to throw in another dot to connect or not:

...perhaps we should also ask how much we ourselves have contributed and contribute to the demand for oil directly and indirectly with the conveniences of our lifestyle, our gluttonous vehicles, our profligate energy use, etc -- as well as our lack of political engagement, our sucking at the corporate teats that basically have purchased our government and rewritten the rules in their favor. All of this feeding directly into our debilitating militarism that penetrates our economy far more deeply than most recognize. (BP is one of our largest military contractors, along with Halliburton of course.)

I wish it weren't so, but I fear it will have to get a lot worse before we can change. Privilege is hard to give up, and rarely is given up voluntarily. Most people regard their privilege as sacred, the other's guys as greedy and profane. Human denial is a wall that is rarely nicked, never mind penetrated, by a bullet of truth.

Maybe mother nature's rebellion against our onslaught of abuses will ultimately safe us from ourselves.

 

[Thor Melsted]

Don't let the hecklers discourage you. I lived in communist ruled system, they used this technique (all your thoughts discredited because you used the "h" word) You are right and you know it, anyone not completely brainwashed should see it too... I see some think politicians are off limits now- untouchables:nono:

I never said any politician was off limits and I never suggested they shouldn't be criticized when they so richly deserve it (and now is certainly one of those times).

I merely pointed out that suggesting anyone operating in modern western politics is in any way comparable to a psychopath who murdered millions, is ridiculous. Calling me a "heckler" for pointing that out is just silly. I actually agreed with Zakaree on the other points, if that wasn't clear.
The fact he owned up to the comparison being inappropriate is admirable and I respect anyone who's willing to do that.

Zakaree, please don't shut your mouth on my account - the Hitler comparison is a peeve of mine. Aside from that one incident of going too far, your points were right on.

 

[Harry Clark]

The $100 million cap is what I call "the rigged market". Lobbyists and other toadies get special treatments enacted for their bosses.
All these executives proselytize about "the free market"... but why can't you sue an HMO for example?
The rich and well connected rig the market for their own profit. Witness "too big to fail" financial firms and the massive bailouts we handed these idiots. How do they deserve bonuses? They should be in jail.
Everyone on this forum belongs to the REAL free market. Most of us are freelancers. We are only as good as our last work. People will only hire us and rent our gear if we perform.
In "the rigged market", you reap rewards whether you perform or fail.
How did we get here???
Harry

 

[Milan Spasic]

I really really really wish this whole shitbag was just a coincidence..

just a big ass accident that happened...

but for me to actually believe that, I would need to be a brain dead, american idol hypnotized sheep.

but if you really look deep.. youll find "coincidences" that really make no sense...

goldman sachs who is deeply connected to BP...
half of the obama administration who come from goldman sachs
BP big financial contributor to this admin..
head of BP pulling out most of his stocks the week before.
haliburton (cheney) company working on the platform (funny how they happen to be everywhere something big happens)

look who gains...
first.. BP isnt allowing anything that doesnt belong to them to assist in the clean up.
you know that even the 200 million cap or whatever, they have fat insurance that will pay it.. so they arent going to be affected at all.

You may say.. yah but people will hate BP and not use them..

TOUGH!

stringent new laws and taxes that will quickly follow this spill will more than likely put other oil companies out of biz and that leaves us with one giant monopoly.

the rest of the clean up will come out of our pockets via new tax.. a new tax they have been desperately wanting to pass called cap and trade...

long story short with cap and trade, you will be TOLD how many miles you can drive (or else you pay a tax per mile after that)
You will be TOLD how much air conditioner you can have or heat,
you will be forced to BUY carbon credits? HA....

I know most you guys are saying.. this guy is a conspiracy nutbag...

yeah... I AM!

I look at facts, money trails, and more importantly HISTORY!

nazi germany... hitler promised hope and change (literally)
he was big on passing a national health care
he was big on passing a green tax
they used false flags to get to where they wanted to get..


im not saying this administration is hitler..
im not even saying hitler is hitler..

there might be bigger people pulling the strings...

IE.. BANKS!

dont mistake this rant as a pro oil rant or anything like that.. in fact quite the opposite..

we should be able to develop cleaner fuels, and energy..

but why do we need to be taxed to death on that?

anyways.. too much weird shit and the puzzle pieces are slowly fitting together real nice for people to figure out..

so please dont criticize me if you think im just a nutcase, its fine if you want to look the other way..

but I can just stand here with what I know and shut up.

what im saying is history repeats itself, and connect the dots yourself

Zackaree likes vanilla ice cream.
Hitler liked vanilla ice cream.

Zackaree = Hitler

Badabam, history repeats itself! It's a fact, just connect the dots, man.

 

[Graham_C]

Don`t shoot the messenger.

 

[Gavin Greenwalt]

The U.S. Government really does need to intervene. Send in the Navy, kick BP out of the Gulf, and bring in engineers to stop the leak. Nobody should be worried about the best ways to bring the oil production back online. Containment should be the ONLY concern.

It would be if this was a Nuclear meltdown. This is no different.

People keep saying this but it's illogical. BP is getting 0 oil now. BP won't be getting any oil until they get the relief wells dug. There are no solutions I've seen put on the table that would change the fact that BP can get oil out of the relief well. And I've seen no ideas shot down that would stop the oil now and prevent BP from tapping this well later.

What is this mythical solution that would stop the oil and prevent BP from getting oil later that isn't being employed?

I think this is a catastrophe and I think BP should be strung up by their nuts but I also think that paranoid conspiracy theories are counter productive to finding real solutions. I also don't think anyone at Goldman Sachs or BP is smart enough to pull off a conspiracy theory. I think they're just both that incompetent. To suggest that they're run by super geniuses gives them more credit than they deserve. They're ordinary people with extraordinary amounts of greed. The best weapon against them is to point out the fact that they aren't the super gods that they paint themselves as. People listen to them because they paint themselves as super-experts. In practice they're not any better than throwing darts. They just leverage themselves with enough that their average performance results in extraordinary profits.

And then when they say that switching to a renewable energy economy. That regulating the banks would kill our market and that imposing regulations is a communist take-over of the banking system we can point and laugh at their previous complete inability to predict the economy or the market and say "Yeah that's great, but we see you for the big talking frauds you are."

If they were conspiring to take over and kill us all then they would be economic super geniuses.

Their competence is all part of their mythos that they are the 'brilliant minds' of wall street who are irreplaceable. They're very replaceable. We can put the good of the people ahead of corporate profit. We can protect the public interest and still have free enterprise. They'll whine and they'll complain but as BP has proven, profit isn't everything. Sometimes a little smaller GDP is worth the cost.

 

[shashbugu]

BP has me so pissed off right now, I have no words to express... I've been quiet on the related threads. They're political to some degree, which is usually not allowed around here, but I think most here are in agreement.

That said, one of my best clients is an engineering firm that consults with the military, oil companies, etc.. These guys do things like rescue sailors from stranded submarines and salvage sunken military vessels along with their nuclear power plants and arsenals. They have plans and potential solutions to this. They have experience in capping similar leaks, including several lesser-known leaks that occurred during the Gulf War when Iraqis sabotaged and abandoned offshore rigs in the Persian Gulf. BP will not talk to them. The US Government is steering them and many others away from the problem. No one is allowed input or the chance to actually help or attempt anything here.

What is happening here in the Gulf of Mexico is an inexcusable crime. BP has already decided that the relief well, and subsequent capping from below or attaching a new valve stem once the pressure is relieved, is the solution. Everything else we are seeing being tried -- yes, the lame-ass something or other band-aids they try every 10 days or so, is nothing but a dog and pony show so people think they might actually be attempting something.

For starters, there is no reason this well is allowed to spew 50,000 to 85,000 barrels worth of oil each day into our gulf. The well casing is more than strong enough to handle several times the pressure at the leak site -- the reason it is ruptured and leaking is because the platform collapsed and took down nearly a mile of that pipeline filled with tons of oil at high pressure. There is no reason why a large enough hydraulic clamping or crushing/crimping system wasn't lowered to the leak site to crimp the well casing beneath the rupture point to slow the leak or even potentially shut it off until the relief well is drilled and the primary well can be properly capped or repaired. This is not from me, but from other engineers I talk to. It would be a time consuming process. The well casing is very strong, it could easily take a day or more to put a single crimp in that casing and it could take multiple crimps along the length of the pipe, even digging into the sea floor to do it, in order to effectively slow the leak. But so what? Better than letting it spew forth at full blast for nearly two months now. And so far their solutions were to dump some heavy liquids and mud in there? Or put a big concrete and steal box over it? Whatever... I know it's nearly a mile down there and that's some significant pressure blowing out of that pipe, but come on... They should have possible solutions lined up, ready to try the next one as soon as the first one fails. But like I said, that's not what BP wants to do... They've made up their mind and no one is forcing them to do otherwise.

And here's the overly political part. Our president has failed us. Mr. "I'm calling the shots"... Mr. "The buck stops here, with me.". Should be throwing every resource available at this problem. Because as of right now, no solution is going to be anywhere near as expensive as the clean-up and residual damage. BP should be liable for every penny of the clean-up and reclamation from this spill... But they won't be and they know it, therefore they're content with the current smoke and mirrors while it takes them another 3 to 5 months to finish the relief well and shove a giant tampon into the primary well from below.

Also the often mentioned nuclear solution is not a good idea according to this engineering group I mentioned above. It's not the potential radiation and nuclear contamination that is the real problem. It's the unpredictable nature of explosions in general. There is no guaranty that it would collapse the well. It could rupture the well or the oil field and cause massive hemorrhaging. Or even thousands or millions of smaller leaks below the sea bed that could go unnoticed for weeks, months or even years and slowly contaminate our gulf from below with no way to stop it.

This disaster is also a very in your face reminder of how fragile our ecosystems are and while this is a man-made disaster in many ways, it could happen naturally as well. One major earthquake or other geological event could cause any of these under-sea oil beds to bleed out. A lot of us tend to sit around and talk academically about how bad this oil is and how it's screwing up the gulf. But it's a naturally occurring substance, just sitting there as part of nature. This spill was caused by humans sticking a big straw into a pocket of oil, but what if a large quake split open a similar oil field? What if its contents didn't dump into our ocean at 75,000 barrels per day, but 50 million barrels overnight? Sorry to play the devil's advocate here, but just some food for thought. This also doesn't mean to detract from the severity of BP's screw-up.

You cant cap the well, period!!!!
It will take an hour to cap the well, but the pressure from from the pipe will create craters in the sea bed.
Jeff is absolutely right, the best thing to do right now is get rid of BP ASAP, from the Area. There are companies that have been stopping these kinds of disasters around the world. But Haliburton and BP don't want any one in their territory. I have a buddy on a standby ship outside the gulf area not allowed anywhere near the gulf. The rig they are on is three times the size and 6 times as powerful as the one BP is using currently. They are a rival company to Haliburton.

 

[Michael Hastings]

Zackaree likes vanilla ice cream.
Hitler liked vanilla ice cream.

Zackaree = Hitler

Badabam, history repeats itself! It's a fact, just connect the dots, man.

Nice.

Look, I intensely dislike Cheney and his cronies. there may be an element of economic possessiveness in Bp and Halliburton wanting to keep their fixit money in the family (imagine if you were doing a large production with all your cameras lighting etc and you had a heart attack - would you want them to hire a complete new production company or continue with yours and your partner as DP) but it doesn't add up to conspiracy.

I think people underestimate the difficulty of the problem. Just the pressure at 5000 feet is about 2250 psi - the pressure in a standard scuba tank (remember how Jaws blew up). The 13000 psi of the oil itself is just incredibly difficult to deal with when you are working by remote control over cables and and pipes and air lines, etc. that are well over a mile long. Anyone that says they just flat-out know they could get it done through some other means than the only proven methods (I.e. The relief wells they are already drilling) is just lying/ bullish*ting.

This is one of those humpty-dumpy problems where the only good solution is to avoid it which is why they should have clamped down on it years ago as they got deeper and deeper. Yet throughout the past ten years, and year and a half ago in the campaigns, drill baby drill was presented as the patriotic, all American way to go and was a borderline issue for independents so the moderate candidate had to at least allow some opening for it to get elected.

Well this is what you get.

 

[shashbugu]

Nice.

Look, I intensely dislike Cheney and his cronies. there may be an element of economic possessiveness in Bp and Halliburton wanting to keep their fixit money in the family (imagine if you were doing a large production with all your cameras lighting etc and you had a heart attack - would you want them to hire a complete new production company or continue with yours and your partner as DP) but it doesn't add up to conspiracy.

I think people underestimate the difficulty of the problem. Just the pressure at 5000 feet is about 2250 psi - the pressure in a standard scuba tank (remember how Jaws blew up). The 13000 psi of the oil itself is just incredibly difficult to deal with when you are working by remote control over cables and and pipes and air lines, etc. that are well over a mile long. Anyone that says they just flat-out know they could get it done through some other means than the only proven methods (I.e. The relief wells they are already drilling) is just lying/ bullish*ting.

This is one of those humpty-dumpy problems where the only good solution is to avoid it which is why they should have clamped down on it years ago as they got deeper and deeper. Yet throughout the past ten years, and year and a half ago in the campaigns, drill baby drill was presented as the patriotic, all American way to go and was a borderline issue for independents so the moderate candidate had to at least allow some opening for it to get elected.

Well this is what you get.

Bingo. Truth.
Obama's biggest problem it seems is trusting other people to be honest and accountable. He has some how become the central figure in this oil ACCIDENT.

 

[Antony M]

Zakaree, it doesn't matter how many points you may make that are correct - the moment you compare any American politician to Hitler, you lose all credibility - and my respect in the bargain.

You are so right.

Hitler may have done some bad things, but at least he wasn't in bed with the oil companies.

Although his use of euphemisms and media were very similar.

 

[Antony M]

Wow, So the OIL companies have a $100M trigger to drive the price of OIL up by the Billions... So BP gets through this & pays their $100M fine and in return collects Billions due to a higher market price???? It's Operation Iraq Liberation all over again.

I see lots of posts here complaining about the $100m cap.

But BP have publicly stated that they will be paying over the cap, to meet compensation in full.

So the cap is irrelevant.

 

[Brandon Kraemer]

The cap is irrelevant.

What is not irrelevant are the upfront costs and safety measures that BP is allowed to skirt due to very lax oversight on the industry here, which as well all know has much to do with the lobbyists for the industry and the political connections they have.

In Norway for example, offshore drilling can only take place if they begin two relief wells at the same time they begin to drill the main well. This way they can seal the well and mitigate accidents before they happen. Somehow preventing an ecological disaster by spending more money (and creating more jobs) up front made sense to them. Amazing!

BP and companies like them have hundreds of these wells with no bi-pass or relief wells built in. The only stop gap is the blow-out preventer which as we all know has failed on this well. Only now has BP started the relief well, which will take months to complete... meanwhile the Gulf, it's wildlife, it's industry, it's people and it's future are being drowned in crude.

It's greed and cronyism that plague us. When will we learn?

 

[Jay Gannon]

I think people underestimate the difficulty of the problem. Just the pressure at 5000 feet is about 2250 psi - the pressure in a standard scuba tank (remember how Jaws blew up). The 13000 psi of the oil itself is just incredibly difficult to deal with when you are working by remote control over cables and and pipes and air lines, etc. that are well over a mile long. Anyone that says they just flat-out know they could get it done through some other means than the only proven methods (I.e. The relief wells they are already drilling) is just lying/ bullish*ting.

This is one of those humpty-dumpy problems where the only good solution is to avoid it which is why they should have clamped down on it years ago as they got deeper and deeper. Yet throughout the past ten years, and year and a half ago in the campaigns, drill baby drill was presented as the patriotic, all American way to go and was a borderline issue for independents so the moderate candidate had to at least allow some opening for it to get elected.

Well this is what you get.

Thank you a well thought out informed response.
Those crying out send in the Navy seem to forget the Navy doesnt know anything about capping commercial oil wells. The comparison to a nuclear meltdown is totally apples and oranges, the Navy runs nuclear reactors, the navy does not run oilwells.

 

[Ethan Cooper]

I see lots of posts here complaining about the $100m cap.
But BP have publicly stated that they will be paying over the cap, to meet compensation in full.
So the cap is irrelevant.

Call me skeptical, but BP is a publicly owned company and the shareholders could very well demand that the company save itself by hiding under the protection of that 100mil cap. Good intentions are one thing, but the reality is that those share holders don't want to see their investment take a beating when the financial damage could be far less.

 

[Michael Schrengohst]

The people of Louisiana have lost faith in the Federal Government. They are saying the government is more of a hinderence than a help regarding the oil spill. The EPA and Corp of Engineers want to do environmental impact studies before sand berms are built?
The environmental impact of the oil has hit the marshlands to the point that it will take decades to recover....the feds have turned down offers of help and don't have the urgency required in this situation.

 

[Steve Sherrick]

Did anyone watch this last night on Discovery Channel. Interesting.
Disaster in the Gulf: A Race Against Time

Conspiracy theories aside (and there are good reasons to have them), the truth of the matter is that perception can sometimes override everything, including facts. In my opinion, the perception in this country, that is growing by the day, is that big business, elite corporations are running everything, including Washington. There may come a time, whether it's in the near future or perhaps a decade from now that people will not put up with this. If their livelihoods, family businesses, the health of their children, their pursuit of happiness is crushed, and their perception is that the government is being run by greedy, dishonest, and even dangerous people then there is potential for people to take things into their own hands and rise up and take back the country. Let us not forget this passage from our forefathers.

"We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness. — That to secure these rights, Governments are instituted among Men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed, — That whenever any Form of Government becomes destructive of these ends, it is the Right of the People to alter or to abolish it, and to institute new Government, laying its foundation on such principles and organizing its powers in such form, as to them shall seem most likely to effect their Safety and Happiness. Prudence, indeed, will dictate that Governments long established should not be changed for light and transient causes; and accordingly all experience hath shewn that mankind are more disposed to suffer, while evils are sufferable than to right themselves by abolishing the forms to which they are accustomed. But when a long train of abuses and usurpations, pursuing invariably the same Object evinces a design to reduce them under absolute Despotism, it is their right, it is their duty, to throw off such Government, and to provide new Guards for their future security."

Just sayin....We may all seem complacent now, but how many of these events, tragedies will people endure before they say enough. When will we look in the mirror and say, we've contributed to the problem and now we can change it. It starts in our homes, reaches out into our communities, then our states, and then finally all the way to the federal government. Government needs to be a reflection of us. Until we are committed to making changes and become unified as a people, the select few that are in power will continue to define who we are. They will govern with agendas.

I think we might have to ask ourselves this question too, as it relates directly to this crisis. Would we be willing to stop using our gasoline based cars, stop heating our homes with oil, and stop using products made with oil in order to force the oil industry's hand? Do we have the ingenuity to find alternatives that can truly serve our best interests? Do we think this transition can happen quickly? Are we willing to change our lifestyles if need be?

It's one thing to be angry at these perceived evil corporations, it's another to take action, to change the world. Attempts have been made and have been crushed. So, where do we all stand? Are we willing to stand up for what we believe is right? Do we even all agree what "right" is? Is a congruous society possible? It's a very complex situation.

 

[JanneJansson]

Difficult to know the politics and economics behind the spill. What it fact is the life i the sea is dying there. Any oil company that have a "accident" like this should just be stopped from operating at all.

 

[Brandon Kraemer]

I think we might have to ask ourselves this question too, as it relates directly to this crisis. Would we be willing to stop using our gasoline based cars, stop heating our homes with oil, and stop using products made with oil in order to force the oil industry's hand? Do we have the ingenuity to find alternatives that can truly serve our best interests? Do we think this transition can happen quickly? Are we willing to change our lifestyles if need be?

For myself... the answers to these questions are a resounding YES. Individuals can create an impact, you have to start somewhere. Clearly however, there is no wide spread infrastructure in place to replace oil/gas and even coal as a source of energy to heat homes and power cars.

If my city built a light rail transit system (creating jobs) I would use it... but I am forced to car commute most of the time. If we built an interstate rail system (creating jobs), similar to Europes, I would use that to travel to distant destinations. Wide spread availability of electric cars, which could have happened by now if there was the incentive, would certainly help radically reduce demand for crude and would also create demand (and jobs) for electric based infrastructure.

I think people are ready and have been ready for real change in terms of energy technology, but the politics have only slowed innovation. Lets not forget what a big industry and political action war is... and the reason most wars are started is over energy and access to it.