Lighting plans for a campfire scene

[Taylor Gill]

I have an upcoming shoot With a scene that takes place at night, in a field. Three characters sit around a campfire, with a row of trees behind them. In the script, they occasionally launch off fireworks.

We will be shooting on the MX. I have a lot of experience lighting for the M sensor, but I'm not sure if there will be much time for ample testing with the new sensor, so I thought I'd post here and get some advice from people how may have shot similar scenes.

Three characters sit mainly on one side of the fire. My thoughts for lighting this as efficiently and quickly (for shooting out) as possible, was to set up a 12x12 frame with white griffolyn on it behind camera, with 2k and 1k tungsten fresnels on hand dimmers bounced into it for flickering fire light.

Additionally, (if necessary) setting up a 4k HMI far away, bouncing into a 6x6 white griffolyn for broad moonlight and ambient.

Lastly, I have multiple china balls with 250w globes to string in the woods behind the actors to give the shots some depth and texture in the woods behind them.

My questions-
- does this sound like enough/too much light for the MX? Will be shooting zeiss super speeds around 1.6-2.
- would you keep the camera rated at iso800 and light to that? My instinct would be to set camera and light for iso320, so if I need to boost exposure later, I have a stop cushion in post to bump the iso. My main concern is clean blacks and enough exposure to crush the blacks but still have detail inthe trees behind. Thoughts?
- with these lights (a 4k, two 2k's, two 1k's, and 3-5 china balls), what wattage gennie would you recommend? (looking at a 180a (20kW/25kVA)

Any other lighting ideas or MX tips would be much appreciated. Thanks in advance for any insight or advice you can provide.

 

[Mohamed Younis]

I only have experience lighting for the M, but i just got my new epic. The MX sensor is better with the blacks. I think you have more than enough to light the whole scene. I'm not sure what the china balls are but I would use a set of 150s bounced on the talent's faces. I use a gold reflector to bounce small lights just give the faces some shading for the closeups. With the flickering that should look awesome

 

[Shane Kelly]

You should be good. MX is faster that the M. I'd shoot it around 640asa but you could go higher. You can also get flicker generators that will give you a convincing flicker effect if you use several on different lights.

 

[Julio Quintana]

I would use less light to emulate the fire on the subjects faces, otherwise you will need a ton of light in the background to keep the levels even. The MX sensor can comfortably be shot up to 1600 ISO if you are willing to crush the blacks a little in post. At f1.6 and 1600 ISO, you will need very little light on the subjects faces.

 

[Shane Kelly]

I would use less light to emulate the fire on the subjects faces, otherwise you will need a ton of light in the background to keep the levels even. The MX sensor can comfortably be shot up to 1600 ISO if you are willing to crush the blacks a little in post. At f1.6 and 1600 ISO, you will need very little light on the subjects faces.

You can do that but why not give the sensor enough light to begin with. The 4k should provide enough background illumination. I shot a night scene last night at 400 iso (this was on an epic however) with a arrimax 1.8 illuminating the trees behind the subjects and a 2k through silk for a base and 2 x 1k keys, one of them a lowell rifa with a grid. Unfortunately, I can't post any stills but it really looked great. Parcans are also a great light for night backgrounds, especially on closeups (used behind the subject to light trees). They are cheap and can give you great hotspots in the bg.
Just because you are trying to give the appearance of darkness doesn't mean that you have to underexpose it. Even if you do go under on the faces, put something at key somewhere in the frame.


A good way to simulate firelight is to put 3 1k ziplights (softlights) on pigeon plates (beaver boards) on the ground in front of the actors and run them into a flicker generator. Experiment with the sequences and you should have a pretty convincing fire effect.

Let us know how it goes.

 

[David Didato]

Recently shot a period scene on MX, night int. with a fireplace and a few lanterns as practicals. Lit the talent entirely with two 650s on a 2k flicker dimmer. In one shot I actually used a real oil lamp as a fill light. ISO 800 and 5600k - love the MX. No problems with noise in the shadows. Don't shoot at 320.

 

[Julio Quintana]

You can do that but why not give the sensor enough light to begin with. The 4k should provide enough background illumination.

I wasn't sure how large the row of trees in the background is. I guess I was imagining a large forest. But you're right, you shouldn't underexpose if you don't have to.

 

[Ariel Weiss]

Instead of using a diffusion frame, you better off using a HMI fresnel which will give you sharp shadows. Use it un diffused, flooded out and far away from a high point as possible for you. Remember that the moonlight is really a sharp light, only dim.
only suggesting...

 

[Taylor Gill]

Great advice, thanks all.

These comments helped me think more about the balance of exposure between the subjects and the background... I think I may flood that 4k wide to hit the trees as well, since the china balls will probably be dim in comparison to the subjects. I haven't seen the location yet, so I'll have to adjust my plans when I get there.

Lastly, will the image be noisier if I shoot at 320 than at 640/800? That seems counterintuitive. My concern is for under exposure, since we're in the middle of an open field at night. If I shoot at more like 320iso and when I get it in the computer it looks darker than I had wanted, I can always boost it to 800-1600 to gain exposure without adding much noise. I worry that if I shoot at and light for 800, if I under expose at all, I don't have much room to boost later. I admit my logic may be wrong, but I'm trying to understand why.

Thanks for everyones input, this has been very helpful.

 

[Douglas Underdahl]

Check the video at the bottom of this page:

http://web.mac.com/underdahl/Site/RED_ONE_mount.html

 

[paulherrin]

800 is the recommended "sweet spot" for the MX sensor, and in this situation, and others like it, i would expose for 800.

even at 320-400, with those superspeeds at 1.6-2, you are not going to need a whole lot of light... i recently shot a campfire scene, if my memory serves me well, at about 400, T2-ish. i mainly relied on the actual campfire and a single gelled kinoflo. occasionally i used some bounce and had some little points of lights scattered in the background. my actors were close enough to the fire to stay warm, as it was cold, and the fire was not big by any stretch. normal campfire size. biggest thing to consider is keeping the fire going at a consistent level, which takes some effort. you will want to have one person dedicated to that task, especially if you use it as your key light source.

just saying there are other approaches, i'm sure you'll find what is going to work best for your style and the demands of the production. let me know if you have any other questions, and good luck!

http://sleepersvfx.tumblr.com/stills - you'll see some ungraded stills there, not the best representation of the fire effect. if you're interested i can send you a link for the short, so you can see.

 

[Philipp Straehl]

indeed, the fire is a task for itself. But mostly even in a small team there are enough 'fire-keeper' or 'fire-master'.