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  • Hey all, just changed over the backend after 15 years I figured time to give it a bit of an update, its probably gonna be a bit weird for most of you and i am sure there is a few bugs to work out but it should kinda work the same as before... hopefully :)

Life after Red

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BTW: Getting a cheap 4K camera (the Scarlet) generated enough dough to get an Epic and over 100 ghz of new cpu-power. Maybe the odds are against most of us, but Red can propel us to the very high end of the trade, not over night, but with hard work. It's worth the investment and the risk. F3 or C300 are basic tools, you can easily rent them and learn the same. Working on Reds is pushing you to the limits of motion acquisition - both technically and esthetically.
 
BTW2: How does the "author" of the article know about C300 outselling Scarlet? I know about one C300 owner and 8 new Scarlet owners (their first pro camera).

BTW3: It's fun that people start hating Red and Red-users the same way people hated those who shot on film. It's a compliment.
 
jaadgy akanni said:
This guy's out of touch ; and so are his writing skills, with his misspellings and solecisms.. BTW, he meant "to the detriment of..." not determent of..
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"for all intensive purpose" Sorry, I tried to resist but couldn't help myself.

"If 4K is better than why" Ugh, I feel a rant coming on.
 
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You can't please everyone, and RED will always have it's detractors. Their products are more expensive than what DSLR shooters are willing to pay, and more affordable than what Hollywood would like them to be. They appeal to film makers who are willing to pay for an absence of limitations.

Not everyone wants that. There are many who want to pay less, and be more limited. They have that right. And I have the right to think they are wrong. Haha!

I'm kidding (only barely), but for me it comes down to a question of philosophy. I don't believe philosophically than I can look an agency in the eye and tell them I can make an uncompromising commercial with an FS700. But when I shoot on RED, I don't feel that way. I feel like I can shoot anything.

That's just me. To each their own.
 
I think the point of my article is missed here. Its about progress and making better products as well as company policies, practices, etc in the end. If you think its okay to ban someone for speaking honestly or threatening lawsuits over names like Scarlet for TV's is okay then none of what I write will be acknowledged anyway. Attacking my spelling is fine if that's all you got. I am not a writer I am a shooter. I understand why Graeme has to advocate Red's sensor as being the best in his opinion. I am sure if asked, Red will say they also have the best highlight handling and dynamic range. As shooters who use everything, we know better than that. Those who don't, simply have not shot with Alexa, C300, or F3 w/S-Log before. The point of DeBayering and OLP is still the same however. Resolution is affected by both. Anyone who wants to argue that is just full of shit or being defensive. How a Bayer pattern is oriented and amount of green, red and blue is key to the image, regardless of how its importance is devalued here.

This community has forever been full of defense rather than taking an ounce of criticism and using that to better oneself, company or product. I happen to shoot a fair amount of Epic. Its a great camera. I also happen to shoot with everything else which removes any stereotype or defense to Red, etc. You paid $58K for a camera, I get it. I am sure F65 owners feel the same way when those beasts sit on the shelf waiting for rentals. Last thing you want is for anyone to say anything bad about it. If you read my article you will see I am not really saying anything bad but rather saying Red will also have to step up its game as other products are coming to market that will truly compete. This is a good thing. How can you not see that? Its not personal. A community that says Alexa is crap because its 1080p is delusional at best and has no grasp of the real world market and what others outside of this protected hallow think.

Real DP's don't protect a camera or a camera company with defense. They talk about pro's and cons and use what is best for a particular project. Yes if you like something you tend to use it more, but its not your child. Demand more.
 
The article is your opinion and view.

Other will not agree and we'll see this spiral into attack, defense and counter attack etc.

No single tool is perfect for everything.

What Red did, with the Red One is create the path that other manufacturers now follow. They proved the digital film model and the big boys followed. Red answered back with the Epic (and Scarlet) now there's more competition & choice. The Epic still has an MX sensor, so let's see what the Dragon upgrade brings... and let's also see what the next 'next' gen brings.

It's all about evolution - both of technology, attitudes & perspective.

I started back in the late 80's (as a Director) - in the land of PAL SD... before anything 'digital' came along. Digital Betacam was a revelation (you mean you can copy/dub the tape and not got an image loss!? wow!). LOL.

Now I can shoot digital film images on any number of systems.
 
Michael I agree with you in many regards, as I said before I shoot with a variety of cameras in my day to day work. To be completely honest the bulk of my freelance work is Alexa, with the remainder being Epic or a handful of 5D.

I don't want to get into the super-technical stuff, because I don't know enough about it to argue, but I will say this:

I like the Alexa, no-one can dispute its a great camera. I think the C300 shoots a great picture, and the Price-point of the FS700 terms of a small, moderately high speed package is unreal.

I just personally prefer the EPICs multifunctionality. (if that is a word) If I had to shoot just one system, yes, it would be red. Sure I may need 4K in terms of delivery files once or twice a year at this point but its nice in terms of reframing and for stills, something which Im using it for more and more it seems.

I hope this doesn't descend further into a shit-flinging match. It seems to be getting more and more trendy to bash red these days, and some of the reactions you find on reduser these days tend to just pour gasoline on that fire.

RED have made some phenomenal tools, and have great customer loyalty too, for which I think they deserve the loyalty they get in return.

Im a proud Red owner and wouldn't give up my camera for anything. But I do have that FS700 page bookmarked for a weak moment in the future.... ;)

Competition is good. If the other guys are finally putting out 4K and RAW now, think what the brains at RED HQ must have done with a 5 year lead over them. I look forward to it.

Lets all be friends people.

peace.
 
Michael N. Sutton said:
Attacking my spelling is fine if that's all you got.
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But that's clearly not all people have got. Your article is full of specific technical errors which have been pointed out in this thread. The discussion might go toward a more constructive goal if you corrected your article instead of saying people are full of shit for pointing out where you've either misunderstood or misrepresented technical details.
 
Michael, thanks for coming here to talk about your article. I've written accurately and truthfully above about the points you make on resolution, Bayer patterns and OLPFs. I didn't respond to your more subjective comments as they are what they are and you're entitled to your opinion, but if you talk on objective and measurable technical matters inaccurately I'm going to call you on it.

When people choose to use a camera, they (should) choose the appropriate camera for the job. Our goal as camera designers is to make a camera that is most appropriate for most jobs. Some camera manufacturers design cameras to be the best possible camera for very specific jobs ( think Phantom and high speed for instance ). When people buy a camera, they want to buy something that's going to work for the kinds of jobs they shoot and their shooting style. It's no surprise that when people choose any camera, they're choosing the right product for their needs and if someone who has different needs or expresses a different weighting of various camera features comes along and criticizes their choice, they're going to be defensive, and this is not a RED specific phenomena, witness the age-old Canon / Nikon in the stills world or Sony / Panasonic in the video world (or film v everything else for that matter). Similarly people who buy a RED because they like the image quality, form-factor and flexibility will be dismissive of those that choose to shoot on cameras that make soft or aliasy images because they don't personally like soft or aliasy images. Cameras have always stirred emotions and emotional response. Perhaps it's because image making is a highly personal thing?


Coming back to my original point, you say: "The point of DeBayering and OLP is still the same however. Resolution is affected by both. Anyone who wants to argue that is just full of shit or being defensive. How a Bayer pattern is oriented and amount of green, red and blue is key to the image, regardless of how its importance is devalued here. " - what are you saying? The importance of how a sensor works, resolution, aliasing etc. is of prime importance on RED User. Many have asked questions and learned about this aspect of image making form RU. I've spent countless hours educating people and discussing these issues, with a strong no-bullshit line of telling people exactly how these factors effect the image and why we choose to do things the way we do.

Graeme
 
Andy you seem very level headed and clearly got the point of what I was writing. You clearly are not a fanboy but rather a working DP. Thank you
 
Michael N. Sutton said:
Attacking my spelling is fine if that's all you got.
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Nah I don't mean to attack you. I place great importance upon writing and spelling and those things take a beating in the blogosphere.

You started out strong and I was following your first paragraph or two, but somewhere after 35mm adaptors you started to lose me. Some of it was simple disagreement but your subsequent points may have been lost on me due to a failure to communicate. As I became distracted by the technical-literal things and found that I disagreed more and more, I just stopped reading. Sorry.
 
While i agree with some of your points, mainly the need of "attitude adjustment", I think it's bizarre that you never mention RAW.
Secondly, your statement that Dalsa "could have" done the same Red has done is neither here nor there.
 
Thank you for responding Graeme. We all have our opinions. I do not design sensors but I deal with them and manufacturers on a daily basis. With special insight into Sony, Canon, Panasonic and others I do get to see other approaches to sensor design and Bayer pattern layouts, how its processed on the back-end, etc. Still I appreciate where you are coming from and I look forward to what you come up with next. I hope the next sensor focuses less on resolution and addresses what is currently lacking which of course is high light handling, a better ISO rating, and better DR (without reliance on HDRx,) etc.
 
If we want to talk about progress and about prices coming down, quality going up, and such...The article should focus on the black magic cinema camera as well... That camera seems to be a far more serious competitor to the Red systems then these over priced 1080P cameras. The new mbp should of demonstrated to you and the world that 1080p as the the be all to end all is on the way out. Every camera company has expensive proprietary cards but the BMC. Shooting raw with any model besides BMC is quite expensive...

What really upset me, and why I was so harsh in my response on the article is that Red has enough debunking to do already with old rumors, bad info, problems that no longer exist from back in the day, etc. During reducation they spend quite a bit of time debunking false red myths. They do this because of blogs like this that spread inaccurate information.
 
The crux of the blog article is a good and interesting one... RED pushed the technology and price point to somewhere the big guns were not willing or ready to go... In turn, the big guns may push RED into becoming the corporate business that perhaps they are not willing or ready to be.

Cut out some of the technical stuff that you are not 100% sure about and you would be onto a winner.

It will be very interesting to see the next 5 years of RED, as a company. Will they keep their aggressive, indie/niche attitude, or become more conservative?

My personal view is that Jim Jannard would like to see RED up there with Panavision, Technicolor etc as a brand that even the common man associates with Hollywood and the film industry. This will need a more conservative approach to fully achieve. I think though, his vision may have changed over the years, especially as this community grew. I think somewhere down the middle will do just fine for him and RED, the Hollywood A-list rebel of the camera world.
 
Have you read about our Dragon plans, as they advance our sensor design programme significantly. You may want to read my specific comments on the mistakes you make in talking about resolution, Bayer patterns and aliasing performance though.

Graeme
 
Thank you for being, Graeme...
 
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