lenses for red raven

[Tony Hernandez]

Hi, considering its sensor size (like m4/3) with an announced FF crop factor of 1.87, What are the best lense or adaptor solution for, especially fast lenses for wider shoot.

Canon CN primes are FF so a 24mm is like 45mm and then the lowest CN 14mm is T3.1 so no way for wider and fast and light as it is T3.1

I think maybe some S35 mm lenses will be better as the crop factor will be less, true ?
Problem is that there are no too many primes on S35 with high quality for Canon EF.

What about using a Zeiss Ultra Prime, they are PL only but S35 and not FF, so it will reduce the crop factor so UP may give raven a best approach for low light and wide shoots. What do you think about ? is there any PL to Canon EF adaptor that work ok especially for arri Ultr primes ? (i read some not work)

So whats your opinion about, what high quality lenses you think will be better to have for raven low light speed wide shoots ?


UPDATE: As for this long discoussion current options in Cinema lenses with fast aperture and wide are:

CINEMA QUALITY:
Optimo Style 16-40 cinema about 17K so too much for this camera
ULTRA PRIMES: Does not work (about 12-14K/lense) as need PL but that is one of the best options out there for this camera

MID-QUALITY:
GL Options 18 35 Rehoused Sigma, about 3500US$ for 100ª or 4500US$ for 300ª
Optica Elite T1.3 for wide for about 5K per prime, but needs PL. I talked with Gregori, he can study to try to find a way to build this lenses for EF
Illumina, same as above, except I didnt talk with anyone

CHEAP ONES:
Rokinon DS
Canon Zooms
I dont reccomend or I dont see in my arsenal, a RED camera with a cheap lense, Im sorry

I discart Canon CN as 24mm is T3.1, Zeiss CP2 as the same or poor at wide, same with Xeen. There's no other FF with wide and fast features

RESUME: Will be better if RED produces a PL mount, can be fixed to fit in the RED line, but a PL

 

[Erich Roland]

Maybe the 11-16mm tokina for canon. Its a 2.8 but the quality is good, and will get you fairly wide.

Or Canons own new 11-24mm. Very good quality, for a bit more coin (and slower 4.0).

 

[Tony Hernandez]

Primes ?
As I think Phil said Raven is on S35 realm as for lenses, Will be better the Zeiss Ultra Primes ? if so, what adaptor for ?
I think canon CN as explained, is no go for wide lowlight shoots on raven sensor, so what other alternatives for low light, prime of course.. 2.8 is too much

 

[AndreeMarkefors]

Look... the sensor is native 1.9:1 and 20.48mm wide. The Raven has an EF mount and in comparison to FF35 the crop factor is 1.76 on the width. That's it. Shall we agree to drop all references to MFT going forward, since we're not using those lenses anyway?

Now that you have the crop factor you can do the math. It's very straight forward.

EF-S 17-55 f2.8 IS = 30-97mm <-- will be popular with f2.8 and IS plus it has a good reputation for resolution.
EF-S 10-22 f3.5-4.5 = 18-39mm
EF 16-35 f4 IS = 28-62mm
EF 11-24 f4 = 19-42mm


Sigma 18-35 f1.8 = 32-62mm

Tokina 11-16 f2.8 = 19-28mm

And of course, then there's the aperture crop factor to consider.

 

[Michael Tiemann]

Look... the sensor is native 1.9:1 and 20.48mm wide. The Raven has an EF mount and in comparison to FF35 the crop factor is 1.76 on the width. That's it. Shall we agree to drop all references to MFT going forward, since we're not using those lenses anyway?

Now that you have the crop factor you can do the math. It's very straight forward.

EF-S 17-55 f2.8 IS = 30-97mm <-- will be popular with f2.8 and IS plus it has a good reputation for resolution.
EF-S 10-22 f3.5-4.5 = 18-39mm
EF 16-35 f4 IS = 28-62mm
EF 11-24 f4 = 19-42mm


Sigma 18-35 f1.8 = 32-62mm

Tokina 11-16 f2.8 = 19-28mm

And of course, then there's the aperture crop factor to consider.

And a 24-105 becomes a 42-185, which is useful in the medium telephoto range.

 

[Jacek Zakowicz]

Primes ?
As I think Phil said Raven is on S35 realm as for lenses, Will be better the Zeiss Ultra Primes ? if so, what adaptor for ?
I think canon CN as explained, is no go for wide lowlight shoots on raven sensor, so what other alternatives for low light, prime of course.. 2.8 is too much

Ultra primes won't work- their PL mounts are not suited for PL->EF adapters

 

[Patrick Tresch]

Gloptics 18-35 1.8?

 

[Bill Stengel]

The near-mint Tokina 11-16 ii that I've had sitting in a drawer since I got the EPIC will be killer on the RAVEN. I'll have to dig it out and post it for sale for the influx of RAVEN folks.

 

[Daniel Stilling]

Goodness, so many numbers and concepts thrown around here, with very little base on the reality of day to day shooting...
Sorry, but this constant comparison to FF is not just wrong, it shows a lack of knowledge in what motion picture cameras have been for a very long time.
I don't recall ant DP's running around, freaking out that their cameras have a 1.5 crop factor compared to cameras from the stills guys, nor have I seen petitions to Arri, complaining on how come the film goes through the gate vertically, when they could design a camera going horizontally so they could have a FF exposed negative. (there are such cameras, but that's beside the point)
Guys, Super 35 is the golden standard in motion pictures. Forget the 5D's and FF for a minute.
The Raven is very close to Super 35. Treat it as such and you'll be fine. a 16 or 18mm prime is usually the widest you'll go in S35 (not counting specialty shots, like fisheye for ex.) if you have an 11-16, you're more than covered.
Also, an 18mm is the same lens, no matter what camera or sensor you pair it to. So saying a 24mm is for FF, then it'll become 45mm, it's ludicrous. The 24 is still the 24. you are just seeing a little less of it.
Imagine that you are standing 10ft away from a glass door. you are looking outside. You see the furniture right outside the door, trees in the distance. now, pull the curtains closed a little bit. What you see is still the same, you just see a little less of it on the sides. so the "lens" is still the same, you just see a little less. now walk towards the glass door. You just went "wider" so the relationship between the angles of what you see outside now is different. That's a change in your focal length. The amount of curtains that you pull won't change the relationship between the objects you see. Therefore a 50 is a 50 is a 50.
Besides all of this, the difference between S35 and the Ravens sensor is very small. Unless you find yourself all the time saying: I wish this 50mm was a 44mm, you are not going to have any issues out in the real world.

 

[Jacek Zakowicz]

The Raven is very close to Super 35. Treat it as such and you'll be fine.
Besides all of this, the difference between S35 and the Ravens sensor is very small. Unless you find yourself all the time saying: I wish this 50mm was a 44mm, you are not going to have any issues out in the real world.

Sorry but your definition of "close " ifs different than mine. 20mm(raven)/25mm(S35) width is 80% (or 75% depending which way you are calculating) If that's "very close".......
The diagonal is even more spread out(because of the roughly 2:1 aspect ratio of the Raven vs 3:2 or 4:3 aspect ratio of the S35) 22mm diagonal Raven vs 30mm diagonal S35. If that's "very close" to you.... That's fine- your definition ;-)
And it will work fine- with the right lenses ..... just pick them carefully....

 

[Tarquin Cardona]

Though not a bargain, the 15mm Zeiss CP with EF mount should be killer on the Raven.

 

[Brian Merlen]

well if you want to get super technical if you look at all the sensors on the market, say using one of abelcines nifty charts they hand out (feel free to google it urself, I'm lazy atm) i nay see a sensor on the market adhering to old standards to the mm at all you could argue..some land closer to certain historic film standards than others, but hardly any are exact, plus cameras like my Amira can do UHD and lose look around, red dragons like mine certainly shoot a lot of usable resolutions in total. So the active area on the chip not only doesn't match anything on most models, but the active areas are malleable unlike film days in that we have lots of say over how much of the chip fires... Thats also coupled with all the reframing/uprezzing bs people do in post houses, regardless of if you think it should be done in the can or not we have more options than ever...we have reusable media! damn good time to be alive if you ask me!

I see different ways to go with this whole EF only thing, number one its not EF only in that you can rock Leicas and many other top end great looking glass in EF mount. So I see it more as do you want a dumb lens or a smart lens. Smart lens technology and fool control interest me at the moment, i even hassled them with two emails to find out more. I aint running out to get wifi on my dragon, but when I go weapon and/or raven i intend to implement it into my workflow. Or at least see if I like it, I think I would cuz often times on set even with my glasses working as a media manager I have no clue where we are at. So owning a iPhone already this seems like a no brainer whether its just for managing settings or hell pulling on EF smart glass!

So depending how well it pulls on different glass that will impact my lens choice as far as EF goes. but I'm not inherently against shooting on modded lens that are EF. and I'm sure guys like Allstar will put out great third party options for mounting various lenses to it too! yet it will take more work if you want to do this, but plenty of people have EF modded stuff cuz of canons success on DSLRs already anyway or to make it work on their red or whatever so theres plenty of glass ready for this. in a worse case scenario if you need the S35 field of view id get a weapon or epic or whatever, but as a dragon owner i really want weapon for the black shades alone, 3d LUTs also ring high, wifi control for fool control also rings high for me, potential for vista interests me...with all of that I'm not sure if i should even get the raven after all but i locked in a very early deposit and can think all winter about what to do... so as far as i know all is good in either case...

something that i don't know about EF that id love to know is if we should go for 35mm full frame lenses or go for APS-c and I'm not sure which electric lenses work best on fool control... but id look into this for cost reasons anyway vs PLs...i still own zero glass even with two nice camera bodies under my wing just cuz its a damn fortune to get the good stuff that i can actually rent and it takes so long day rate wise I'm almost worried vs camera bodies. so Raven is a good price point and i can make EF work and i know of plenty more lucrative dumb EF ways you can rock better glass than L series with so I'm sure people will get creative, or must we resort to using our PL alternatives in some cases, but all is well and I'm sure we can figure it out. the camera is light weight as heck, so cheap still light weight stuff will be a fun set up i think vs putting some red pro primes on and doubling the weight of the camera anyway! how many of you ever pick up a red one? damn we got it good now!!!

 

[darren scott]

This should help you guys figure out your lenses. Plug in RED Epic 4k and thats Raven sensor size. Plug in whatever focal length you want. Based on that, there is quite a difference between the Raven sensor size and M 4/3 (AF100).

http://www.abelcine.com/fov/

 

[Tony Hernandez]

Hi, I only started asking for a fast prime (<=T.2.1) for wide shoot for Red Raven. No one got me a reply.
Im not asking for zooms, for zooms f2.8 or for cheap lenses. What Im askkng here is one thing I think most pro must have in their arsenal, a fast prime for wide shooting. And I think S35 lenses will be better than FF for Raven, or at least for wide shoots.

Thats the question, What primes will be ok with raven, fastest say bet T1.3 and T2.1 for wide shoots ?

And, any adaptor for UltraPrimes (UP are S35 so can be used say a 24mm or less at T1.9 very good for if found an adaptor) that can work, I think may exists working ones out there, cause if not, why they not work, cause if not, at the end, if not UP, then raven will be not ok for wide and low light, my 2cents

 

[Jacek Zakowicz]

You can not mount UP lens on an EF camera- that's all- it won't fit.
I do see an opportunity for making EF mounts for UP lenses- but I'd have to check clearances....

 

[AndreeMarkefors]

Goodness, so many numbers and concepts thrown around here, with very little base on the reality of day to day shooting...
Sorry, but this constant comparison to FF is not just wrong, it shows a lack of knowledge in what motion picture cameras have been for a very long time.

I don't know what to make of your post Daniel. I saw your previous similar post in another thread but didn't reply there.

There are so many formats out in the wild now, with various sensor sizes, that it's perfectly normal to try to find a way to relate one thing to another. The whole concept of crop factor comes from the fact that not all sensors are 36x24mm, or Full Frame (yup, this relates to all photography). It's just another way of saying—just like you point out— that with a smaller sensor "the curtains will be pulled".

It's perfectly fine that your standard is S35. If you grew up only shooting that size, slapping a 24mm or 35mm will mean something very specific to you. But today, someone starts out with a GH2 and then uses a Sony or Canon full frame… sooner or later they get introduced to the concept of crop factor. And whether you like it or not, it invariably goes back to Full Frame as the common denominator.

At the end of the day it just goes back to this: people hear of the new camera/sensor and want to make sense of what they hear. Trying to establish the S35 size as the new 1:1 will not help people who don't already know exactly what we're talking about.

What rubs me the wrong way about your post is that you already know this. You know why people refer to FF and that it is the universal standard. What's up with the condescending nature of your introduction in your post?

Saying a "35mm is a 35mm" would not have helped someone buying the BMCC with EF-mount back in the day.

 

[Oleksiy Kardash]

I'm wondering why is it not possible to produce SpeedBooster for EF-EF mounts?

I'm owner of Sony FS700 which has S35 sensor, but using of EF-SonyE Metabones Speedbooster reduces this crop. Just maths:
FS700 has 1.5 crop. EF-SonyE Speedbooster has a 0.71 crop. So 1.5x0.71 is 1.06. It means that full frame Zeiss 35mm on FS700 is 35x1.06=37mm.
So with Metabones SpeedBooster we can use FF EF-lenses with focal distances almost as they are. On Sony mount.

But why Metabones doesn't produce speedboosters with the same mount types on both sides? For example Full Frame EF for input and EF-APS_C for output. It could solve the crop of Ef-lenses on Epic and Raven.
Could somebody explain - is there any technical difficulties for that?

 

[Jacek Zakowicz]

Ooo it's possible, no doubt
However it would be big, expensive and f stop limited. Absolutely not practical...

 

[Nick Morrison]

You know why people refer to FF and that it is the universal standard. What's up with the condescending nature of your introduction in your post?

Saying a "35mm is a 35mm" would not have helped someone buying the BMCC with EF-mount back in the day.

Andree, I totally hear you...but not sure Id agree FF35 is the "Universal Standard". S35mm Cine has a rich, storied tradition...elevated and refined by most of the filmmakers that have inspired us all...and as such is regularly regarded as "the standard."

FF35 is merely the largest sensor most can afford, and therefore all other sizes are often compared to it (hence "crop factor")....however its size does not make it a filmmaking "standard", in fact it remains an anomaly: Vista Vision Weapon remains the only FF35 sized high end Cinema camera in the world.

As for "35mm is a 35mm", I think Daniel is merely repeating a well known maxim: a 50 is a 50 is a 50. What that means is that many of a prime lens' properties wont change, regardless of sensor size.

For example, take a 50mm @ 2.8....6K HD on Dragon. Frame someone in a medium closeup at 10 feet. The background will fall off in a lovely way. If you were punch into 4KHD, you'd be framed in tighter yes...but the background wont change at all...meaning the 50mm wouldnt behave differently on a smaller sensor...it will just see less.

This is important, because every focal length has it own properties, which can be fun to exploit creatively. For example, sometimes my team and I shoot with a 16mm Stadard Prime at 4.5K. Yes, we could shoot a 21mm st 6K for similar FOV, but the 16mm still has a unique super wide angle rendering/attack that is exciting and fun to exploit.

So focal lengths tend to behave the same across all sensor sizes...you are either seeing more or less of them...which can be a very fun concept to embrace.

These are exciting times for sure!!!

 

[AndreeMarkefors]

S35mm Cine has a rich, storied tradition...elevated and refined by most of the filmmakers that have inspired us all...and as such is regularly regarded as "the standard."

In cinema—of course! I agree without reservation.

But the crop factor is a broad photography concept that happens to apply to cinema too. It has no special regard for the fact that film was "always" S35. I totally understand Daniel's point of view, had he presented it as such. I feel his post was a bit heavy handed.

As for "35mm is a 35mm", I think Daniel is merely repeating a well known maxim: a 50 is a 50 is a 50. What that means is that many of a prime lens' properties wont change, regardless of sensor size.

Now this is where it's at. It's possibly the one thing that photographers need to understand, but they don't: the difference between zooming with your lens and "zooming" with your feet.

How many casual photographers understand what they are actually doing when they zoom the lens, blasting through the focal lengths? Few…

I haven't gone into this at all, because if someone struggles with crop factor, how can they possibly grasp that?

My last thing on this topic:

In digital photography, a crop factor is related to the ratio of the dimensions of a camera's imaging area compared to a reference format; most often, this term is applied to digital cameras, relative to 35 mm film format as a reference.