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Lens Mounts for Epic

M

Mark Pedersen

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Red team,

Maybe I've missed a thread somewhere, but can you clarify how the interchangeable lens mounts work with Epic Bodies?

It appears that the FF35 and 645 ship with a new "Red Mount," while the S35 is configured with a PL mount. Is that the case, or will all bodies ship without a mount, and you then order the mount(s) you want?

Is the Red Mount a universal body mount that accepts different lens adapters (like the PS+Technik system)?

In other words, if you want to use PL glass on an FF35 or 645, do you have to order a PL lens adapter that then mounts to the Red Mount? Same for a Canon or Nikon mount? Or does the Red mount accept Canon, Nikon and Red lenses without any adapters?

Bottom line, I want to be able to use PL glass on an FF35 or 645 and want to know how that will work.

Thanks for clarifying.

M
 
We posted a pic somewhere in this forum of the "mount module". Four bolts and it is off (or on). Backfocus is done at the sensor. So, you buy a PL mount module or a RED mount module... or, you get the picture. Since each lens type has a different BFL distance, we account for that in the mounts, which are precision machined. Lens mount change takes about one minute.

Jim
 
Makes sense to me, 4 bolts and swap. Note that the bolts are on the outside of the mount so they can be larger socket head type and not have flat heads and be less likely to strip. Also, this makes for a very compact set up.

If you were to design an interchangeable type mount, then you have something that might be a bit faster, but larger, more complicated, and more expensive. Also, with an interchangeable mount system, every lens has two mounts, so there is more opportunity for something to go wrong. I know a number of cinematographers who have shot with lens adapters between lens and camera and had problems and swore they never would again.

Now, how do those modules snap together?
 
Jannard said:
We posted a pic somewhere in this forum of the "mount module". Four bolts and it is off (or on). Backfocus is done at the sensor. So, you buy a PL mount module or a RED mount module... or, you get the picture. Since each lens type has a different BFL distance, we account for that in the mounts, which are precision machined. Lens mount change takes about one minute.

Jim
Click to expand...

Awesome!
 
Jannard said:
We posted a pic somewhere in this forum of the "mount module". Four bolts and it is off (or on). Backfocus is done at the sensor. So, you buy a PL mount module or a RED mount module... or, you get the picture. Since each lens type has a different BFL distance, we account for that in the mounts, which are precision machined. Lens mount change takes about one minute.

Jim
Click to expand...

Searching and looking at the forum for the picture of the RED Interchangeable mount.

Not found!!!
 
You can see what's going on pretty clearly from the announcement page on the front of the "brains" and the explosion view...

Actually, scroll down and you can clearly see the mount on the "Interchangeable Everything" page.

Jim
 
Jannard said:
You can see what's going on pretty clearly from the announcement page on the front of the "brains" and the explosion view...

Actually, scroll down and you can clearly see the mount on the "Interchangeable Everything" page.

Jim
Click to expand...

Thanks Jim,

I've got it.

RED_InterMount.jpg

RED Interchangeable Mount.
 
How will the sensor move? Will it be shim-based or mounted on a helicoid of sorts?

You know my fears: shifting collimation, sensor not square to the mount, low resolution helicoid, weak and thermally unstable metals, metal-on-metal wear, etc. While the RED ONE's current lens mount is "good enough" to get the job done, it still leaves a lot to be desired by a perfectionist like me.

The original lens mount did have its issues - it was weak aluminum, the torque specs were too low on the screws that held it in place, the throat was too tight for Century lenses, the collar was wretched and the whole mount was thermally unstable. With that in mind, the biggest issues I ever ran into on set was with cameras that shipped from the factory with as many as a dozen shims in place... having been collimated with a 65mm prime at about 10 feet. Invariably, the weight of an unsupported lens would flex the shims out of place and the mount would go loose. That said, when the mount was honed out and routed for lens compatibility... and it was recollimated with standard shims... it was pretty solid.

The current RED ONE mount is a good idea - it solved many of the problems that the original mount suffered from the factory. It also enables those without access to collimators - it's one of the reasons the camera is able to function so well out of production-heavy cities.

But as good as the upsides to the mount are, the sensor is permanently out of square to the mount, the collimation is thermally unstable and adjusting the mount can be something akin to a crapshoot at times. Don't get me wrong - there's always a way to get everything to tape out. It works, as evidenced by thousands of RED productions. I just feel like it could be better.

So that's why the thought of a moving sensor scares the bejeezus out of me. We're talking about the hottest piece of silicon in the entire camera on an adjustable mount. I see risks of thermal instability, sensor shifting [X, Y and Z], accidental slippage, vibration sensitivity, lubricant near parts that I don't want lubricant by, etc. Hell, when all of the dust that's normally visible against the sensor in the lens mount no longer has that wall go keep it from getting "behind" the sensor, where's it going to end up? Behind the sensor, gumming up the lubricant and sneaking into the cracks in between the finely tuned sensor moving system. How will we get back there to clean it out? Relubricate it? Etc.

I'm not trying to get people worried, I'm just a little concerned about how it's going to work in practice. I know you guys have some tricks up for your sleeve for this one... care to share?
 
FMG battery said:
how many of you will post about that avatar?.. Mr Jannard.. you should charge for your comments.. they eat each word.. ehehehehehe
Click to expand...

It's really not that hard to figure out if you look at it long enough.

Although I share most of Brook's concern over the stability of the "sensor shift" system I will say that my Red One's mount was properly collimated 6 months ago and hasn't needed adjusting since then despite a few flights across the country and world and probably 50+ shooting days. My biggest gripe is that the mount (or sensor) seems to be ever so slightly off center and so zooms track ever so slightly up and to the right. This is a measurbating thing you'll never see in real footage.

I think given there price point the Epics need a truly bullet proof solution to collimation. Especially with larger sensors and 6K or 9K resolution.
 
Brook Willard said:
How will the sensor move? Will it be shim-based or mounted on a helicoid of sorts?

You know my fears: shifting collimation, sensor not square to the mount, low resolution helicoid, weak and thermally unstable metals, metal-on-metal wear, etc. While the RED ONE's current lens mount is "good enough" to get the job done, it still leaves a lot to be desired by a perfectionist like me.

The original lens mount did have its issues - it was weak aluminum, the torque specs were too low on the screws that held it in place, the throat was too tight for Century lenses, the collar was wretched and the whole mount was thermally unstable. With that in mind, the biggest issues I ever ran into on set was with cameras that shipped from the factory with as many as a dozen shims in place... having been collimated with a 65mm prime at about 10 feet. Invariably, the weight of an unsupported lens would flex the shims out of place and the mount would go loose. That said, when the mount was honed out and routed for lens compatibility... and it was recollimated with standard shims... it was pretty solid.

The current RED ONE mount is a good idea - it solved many of the problems that the original mount suffered from the factory. It also enables those without access to collimators - it's one of the reasons the camera is able to function so well out of production-heavy cities.

But as good as the upsides to the mount are, the sensor is permanently out of square to the mount, the collimation is thermally unstable and adjusting the mount can be something akin to a crapshoot at times. Don't get me wrong - there's always a way to get everything to tape out. It works, as evidenced by thousands of RED productions. I just feel like it could be better.

So that's why the thought of a moving sensor scares the bejeezus out of me. We're talking about the hottest piece of silicon in the entire camera on an adjustable mount. I see risks of thermal instability, sensor shifting [X, Y and Z], accidental slippage, vibration sensitivity, lubricant near parts that I don't want lubricant by, etc. Hell, when all of the dust that's normally visible against the sensor in the lens mount no longer has that wall go keep it from getting "behind" the sensor, where's it going to end up? Behind the sensor, gumming up the lubricant and sneaking into the cracks in between the finely tuned sensor moving system. How will we get back there to clean it out? Relubricate it? Etc.

I'm not trying to get people worried, I'm just a little concerned about how it's going to work in practice. I know you guys have some tricks up for your sleeve for this one... care to share?
Click to expand...

People worry about everything... why not wait until you see how it works before you get worked up?

It appears that we have a track record of making things better... not worse.

Jim
 
Sounds scary to me. We had to adjust backfocus twice in the field on my last feature....not an easy or quick procedure to do in the field.
BTW havent had one single glitch with the camera in 7 weeks of shooting. Lots of handheld, in car, car process, camera shaking,ect. Shooting with drives only...not one single dropped frame. Only had two minor things: "Recording error", just pressed the button again 2 seconds after and it worked.
Shot the period parts(1/3) of the film on S35mm. Surprisingly slower to work on film. my guess is 1/2hr each day with a camera crew of 3(Focus puller, loader, video assist)

Best
JJ
 
Jannard said:
People worry about everything... why not wait until you see how it works before you get worked up?

It appears that we have a track record of making things better... not worse.

Jim
Click to expand...

As I said in my post, I wasn't trying to incite fears. I also stated that you guys have made things better [the new lens mount], so I agree with you there as well. I'm just curious about how you're going to make this part of the equation work... particularly considering the long list of potential engineering and real-world usage difficulties. Nobody's worked up, I'm merely interested in your solution to these currently existing and potential future dilemmas.
 
Jannard said:
We posted a pic somewhere in this forum of the "mount module". Four bolts and it is off (or on). Backfocus is done at the sensor. So, you buy a PL mount module or a RED mount module... or, you get the picture. Since each lens type has a different BFL distance, we account for that in the mounts, which are precision machined. Lens mount change takes about one minute.

Jim
Click to expand...

OK, makes sense. In the original Nov 13th Epic/Scarlet Brochure (JPEG) with all the camera options, you listed different mounts on the bodies, and the Red Mount on the FF35 looks smaller than the Red Mount on the 645 so it is a bit confusing. Plus there was no information on the Red Mount.

So just to be totally clear, the FF35 Epic will accept a PL mount module and you order each mount separately from the camera body, right?

Can you explain what the Red mount is for then? If Red lenses are PL mount, why would you build a proprietary mount? I assume there must be some intrinsic value....

On the subject of backfocus adjustment, will there be pre-set settings or a standard calibration method to adjust back focus in the field?

M
 
RED mounts are not PL mounts. No reason to duplicate a PL mount with a different name. The RED mount would be the equivalent to a Canon or Nikon mount for RED lenses.

If you are lucky, you can change mounts with no calibration of back-focus... like a RED ONE now. If it is needed, it should be very slight. Instead of the mount being adjustable, the sensor block is. It is really slick and solid.

If you own a Scarlet S35 brain and an EPIC S35 brain and use PL mounts, you will need one for each body.

Jim
 
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