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  • Hey all, just changed over the backend after 15 years I figured time to give it a bit of an update, its probably gonna be a bit weird for most of you and i am sure there is a few bugs to work out but it should kinda work the same as before... hopefully :)

Lens kit suggestions...

Brennan Clark

Brennan Clark

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So I'm about to get an Epic and have been racking my brain on what lenses I should get. Basically I'm getting a $100k biz loan and need to spend it as wisely as possible. I'm stuck because I'm not sure what's more important. Lens variety or lens quality. If I set aside $25,000 to spend on a lens set, yeah I could get a set of Zeiss CPs or RPPs but I wouldn't have much of a variety. I wouldn't even have a lens that was over 100mm with the sets I've seen. But those lenses are also balla and super sharp. On the other hand if I were to only spend like $15,000 on lenses, I could get a decent variety of L-Series lenses. Plus, I love the character and flares of the L-Series that the Zeiss and RPPs don't seem to have. I'm guessing that most of what I will do will be downsized to HD. I am really getting the Epic because of the color correction abilities. But I've only seen a few clips from Epics shot on L-Series glass.

What are the major downsides to L-Series glass over primes? The focus ring won't have as much of a circumference? There is slight breathing? Not as sharp?? The plus side to using L-Series is that they're way cheaper and have more character. I could save $10,000 and buy a motion controlled slider. Plus have a great variety of glass options. I've read about some users enjoying putting old school lenses on their Epic because of the unique look. I don't necessarily like the idea of having a plain jane look.

Also, I've seen the sweet feature of touch-focusing with the LCD screen on Canon lenses. Can you time out a rack focus? It'd be nice if you could for the sake of motion controlled movements.

Thanks for the input!
Brennan
 
Hey Brennan, and welcome to Reduser!

I am one of those guys who likes the old school lenses. You have a bunch of good options though. It sounds like you can be creative with your lens choices. A mixed bag might be just what you need.

Canon L Series - 16-35, 24-70, 70-200
Vintage PL mount - Zeiss Super Speed MKI or B-Speeds with PL adapter, or Cooke Panchros Ser II/III, or Kinoptik 35mm lens, etc.
New PL mount - Red 17-50, or Red 18-50 (old model, but still a decent starter lens if you can find a good one)

You could probably get all that for less $20,000 and you would have a lot of bases covered for different projects. Buying lenses is a tough decision, so take your time with it if you can :) Good luck Brennan and whatever you decide... you made the right choice. Peace.
 
It depends on what sort of work you are doing. What sort of business are you starting that needs a 100k loan? I assume this is a bank loan and for a bank loan you have to have a good record of doing business in the industry you are applying for a loan in. If you are a producer, I would ask the DPs and camera operators you have worked with on past projects what would work best in your situation. That said, Canon L glass is plenty sharp but not designed for follow focus work and they do breath. If I had 25k to burn I would buy the Arri Alura 18-80 T2.8.
 
Canon lenses are probably fine ... if you don't already know the difference you'll probably not notice it when you are shooting. If you do know the difference, then you already know if it matters to your work ... and can answer for yourself better than any of us can answer for you.

Right now however the best value lenses for cinema work seem to be the Illumina primes. At t/1.3 they look good. Not perfect - something has to give of course - but very very solid for the price.
 
Curt Schulz said:
If I had 25k to burn I would buy the Arri Alura 18-80 T2.8.
Click to expand...

I thought the Alura 18-80 was a lot more than that. So I looked it up ... well damn! It appears to be a t/2.6 though ... but hey that's good news!

I still prefer to investigate a set of primes ... but that is a bad ass lens for the price.

Now its on my things Alex must have list.
 
I think you need to ask yourself whether you are going into the gear rental business or the DP/DIT business, or if you are just going to do your own films.

If you don't have any immediate need for glass (i.e., a paid gig), I'd be patient and do a whole lot of research. Rent some and play around. Notwithstanding that RED offers excellent upgradeability and support for its cameras, glass will outlive the acquisition platform. Its an investment and one that should not be rushed into. In fact, given the affordability of the RED/EPIC and other cameras, I am going out on a limb to say that glass is the new barrier to entry. With the price of Cooke S4s or Master Primes at a few hundred thousand a set, that's a pretty short limb.

There are many choices of glass, including some amazing old school lenses, as mentioned (Lomo, Kinoptic, Angie, Cooke, Zeiss, Baltars, Schneider K's, etc), as well as current and even new offerings. You are also just seeing 3rd party lens solutions come to the market for the EPIC. These allow still lenses such as Leica-R, M42, Contax, Canon FD, Nikon, and Canon EF to be used on the EPIC, as well as the regular cinema mounted-lenses (OCT19, BNCR, PL).

Of course, coincident with the options and the production numbers for Red One and EPIC, there is an steep increase in demand and price for glass. Its a very good idea to see what people are requesting as far as lenses on paid gigs. You may also consider renting lenses for a particular gig, rather rather than trying to be a one-stop shop. Perhaps get a Canon EF set and a Red zoom or two to start and then rent anamorphics or vintage glass when a gig calls for it. You can get a nice set of Canon EF for under $10K, or you could easily spend a quarter million on Master Primes.
 
So I was just watching this which was posted on another thread. My main complaint would have to be the hand held-ness of it coupled with the fact that they're using L-Series instead of primes. You can really see the rolling shutter but I love the look of some of the flares (not all though). I'm thinking that L-Series (if handled correctly) would look pretty sweet, but this really does look like DSLR video I've seen when shrunk down to a Vimeo sized video. I hope I don't totally insult whoever posted that!! It does look good and I know they were just playin around. But as of this video, that's as much sample footage that I've seen with the Canon mount.

I think after seeing that video I may have talked myself out of trying to find Canon lenses. I've been on eBay the past few days looking at what's around, plus nosing around the WWW and see there are some other (older) cheaper options if I look correctly. I'm gonna try to stick with PL mount lenses if possible. Once I get a pseudo-final list I'll post it and get some opinions.

Another thought and maybe this has been answered somewhere else, but do 16mm PL mount lenses snap into the red's mount? If so, do they cover the 2K crop? Might be more affordable to buy 16mm lenses and only shoot at 2K if that's even an option.
 
I love my Zeiss superspeeds MK2s but I too like the creamy look. I would recommend a good clean set of Zeiss SS or full set of the Red Primes they are great glass at an amazing price! I would also recommend you have a good zoom, like the Arri Alura zooms! I own one of the 45-250s an it is a bitchen lens! Take a look at the 18-80 Alura. (I also LOVE my Optimo 24-290 and I use it at least half the time! but it is $70k)

If you find another $100k, there are many more options ;)

Prost,
Rich
 
Do you want to use Stills Glass or PL ?

If stills

Leica R and A mount or Canon Mount and Canon Adaptor
Alternative Contax Zeiss plus A mount or Canon Mount and Canon Adaptor or use the Zeiss/ Kyocera primes.

A mount and Nikon F Lenses

or in PL

Angenieux DP 16 42 and 30 80 Zooms and Leica 70 180 f2.8 for the long end.

Or theres a huge selection of PL primes as Im sure you know.
 
Brennan Clark said:
So I was just watching this which was posted on another thread. My main complaint would have to be the hand held-ness of it coupled with the fact that they're using L-Series instead of primes. You can really see the rolling shutter but I love the look of some of the flares (not all though). I'm thinking that L-Series (if handled correctly) would look pretty sweet, but this really does look like DSLR video I've seen when shrunk down to a Vimeo sized video. I hope I don't totally insult whoever posted that!! It does look good and I know they were just playin around. But as of this video, that's as much sample footage that I've seen with the Canon mount.

I think after seeing that video I may have talked myself out of trying to find Canon lenses. I've been on eBay the past few days looking at what's around, plus nosing around the WWW and see there are some other (older) cheaper options if I look correctly. I'm gonna try to stick with PL mount lenses if possible. Once I get a pseudo-final list I'll post it and get some opinions.

Another thought and maybe this has been answered somewhere else, but do 16mm PL mount lenses snap into the red's mount? If so, do they cover the 2K crop? Might be more affordable to buy 16mm lenses and only shoot at 2K if that's even an option.
Click to expand...

You're trying to tell me that you see rolling shutter simply because it's a Canon lens?

umm.... ok... if that's what you think. If it wasn't listed as a Canon lens I would bet $1,000 you couldn't tell what lens it was.

And you think a Canon lens makes Epic look like DSLR? umm... ok, maybe you need to use that $100k loan to get your eyes looked at?

Seriously... what are you smoking?

Best of luck on your search.
 
Brennan,

I'm here in Louisville and shoot exclusively with canon L glass ( 24 1.4, 35 1.4, 50 1.2, 16-35 2.8 II, 24-105 4, and 70-200 2.8is ).... 80 percent of the time I have the 24 1.4 on my red.... Love the angle of view. But when I do change to a longer lens when going from an establishing shot to a tight shot, the color and contrast is very close.... Meaning, I don't have to grade my clips per lens, just a global grade. This makes the post work much easier and gives any project a continuity I'd hate to not have. I'd also like to stress the great value being able to focus the canons wirelessly with the birger/impero.... And the epic with the canon mount will be even better. To be able to do this with PL lenses would be much more expensive regarding kit.

If you would like to come out to my studio and have a look at raw and graded clips your'e more than welcome. I've always enjoyed hanging out with you anyways... So it would be a pleasure.

My personal belief is that canon tries to make a sharp, distortion free lens that has neutral color. Ziess lenses are a little warmer.... Nikon a little colder..... But most of the difference in look only shows up in the out of focus moments. When shooting hyper focal ( everything in focus at smaller apertures like f11 ) most modern lenses look pretty much the same until you let light hit them and introduce flair. And then the difference is in the design of the optics ( planar, tessar, etc. ) and in what way the lens is coated, and what type ( shape ) of aperture blades and how many blades, etc. The main reason Ziess lenses have a smooth/pleasing bokeh is because they have more iris blades ( and curved ) so the aperture hole is nearly perfectly round.

If you had a chance to see the film "the lie" that showed at the flyover film festival.... That was shot on red one with old baltar lenses without any lens coating..... Giving the film a look reminiscent of the 70's.

Then there's the master himself… Roger Deakins…. who tends to shoot with a timeless look, and prefers Arri Master Primes…. "If restricted to 5 lenses I would carry the 50, 40, 35, 32, 27 but I would usually carry a 65, 25, 21 and 18mm. The Arri Master Primes are the fastest and cleanest lenses I know and there is only an imperceptible difference between wide open and 5.6. My choice of a stop would very much depend on the 'look' I am after. Generally I will shoot a large night exterior, such as in 'True Grit', at a T2.0 but sometimes, and largely for reasons of budget, I will shoot at T 1.3."
 
Kris Anderson said:
You're trying to tell me that you see rolling shutter simply because it's a Canon lens?

And you think a Canon lens makes Epic look like DSLR?

Seriously... what are you smoking?

Best of luck on your search.
Click to expand...

1. I can see the rolling shutter because it's hand held.
2. It only looks like a DSLR once it gets dark in this video and the shutter and iris are kicked way up. The colors are obviously better, but I've seen 5D stuff that has come pretty close. I also think it looks DSLRish when shrunk down to Vimeo size.
3. Pot
 
...and Chris. Whut up homie! Shoulda figured you'd be round these parts. You've kinda sold me on the Birger/Impero! I guess I hadn't seen those before. But I may have seen something like that attached to your Red last summer on the Stu shoot. I just looked em up and it looks a little like they're not making it anymore. I'm sure something like that will soon exist.

IMPERO

I may give ya a buzz later today! If you're shooting with all Canon, I gotta check it out. All your stuff looks good.
 
Brennan Clark said:
1. I can see the rolling shutter because it's hand held.
2. It only looks like a DSLR once it gets dark in this video and the shutter and iris are kicked way up. The colors are obviously better, but I've seen 5D stuff that has come pretty close. I also think it looks DSLRish when shrunk down to Vimeo size.
3. Pot
Click to expand...

You should go and buy a 5D then. You clearly don't appreciate the Epic. It would be wasted on you.
 
Kris Anderson said:
You should go and buy a 5D then. You clearly don't appreciate the Epic. It would be wasted on you.
Click to expand...

I have to agree on this. I watched that video again, purposely looking for rolling shutter effects, and couldn't see any. If there was any, that would mean that the shutter speed would have to be slower than any DSLR out there, cause there were not any fast moving shots in there.

Also, if Vimeo size makes things look like DSLR's, the I guess almost every video out there on the web made with RED cameras looks like it was shot with DSLR's.

If you look at it this way, then I see no reason why you couldn't work with a 5D and accomplish your goals.

In the end though, you asked about glass, not a camera. Rolling shutter isn't an artifact of the lens, so you have nothing to worry about. And if you're end result isn't Vimeo or Youtube, then you don't have to worry about the DSLRness that you're trying to avoid. The above people have already listed their recommendations for lenses, and I have no argument with those. Just read their opinions of the lenses, what kind of style they like, and take that information to make the best decision for you, your price range, and the style that you're looking for.
 
Kris Anderson said:
You should go and buy a 5D then. You clearly don't appreciate the Epic. It would be wasted on you.
Click to expand...

Ha! so harsh!
using RED and 5D, i too thought that particular video, in large, could pass for 5D footage at that quality. plus i did notice rolling shutter in some of the handheld shots. And if that was a typical example of what i was hoping to get from Epic, it would certainly be wise to save cash and stick with a 5D!

which is no slight on Joseph, who is obviously doing no-light quick and dirty tests, and kindly uploading to share.
 
in Josephs video, 00:25 or 1:06 i personally see what i perceive to be "jello", from the tiny vibrations of touching the camera.. maybe its even that micro jitter that gives the illusion of jello... not panning skewed rolling shutter from handheld motion, just wanted to make it clear what i'm agreeing with. I don't see why noticing that makes one full of "it"!

though i'm not sure this is any longer relevant as everyone agrees lenses do not affect read reset times.
 
Brennan Clark said:
My main complaint would have to be the hand held-ness of it coupled with the fact that they're using L-Series instead of primes. You can really see the rolling shutter but I love the look of some of the flares (not all though). .
Click to expand...

Brennen,

If your seeing "rolling shutter" skew, I'm not sure you know what to look for. Maybe it's feeling DSLR like to you because of higher shutter coupled with handheld? I agree with that...but it definitely aint skewing...and he whips the cam a few times for good measure. I actually was pretty impressed with the way the Epic performed with that.

-Dane
shootcutcolor.com
 
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