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  • Hey all, just changed over the backend after 15 years I figured time to give it a bit of an update, its probably gonna be a bit weird for most of you and i am sure there is a few bugs to work out but it should kinda work the same as before... hopefully :)

Leica Summilux-C Primes

Ken Wilson said:
What will you do in my case? I'm expecting the Dragons day by day but that's half the story. Or is it more to your opinion and anyone elses of course.
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I'll jump in. There's more to glass than merely resolution.

Traditionally speaking, though incredibly expensive to do these days, IMAX is shot 15-perf and that's a freaking large negative. Shot real well, optically processed, and duped we're talking past 4K and even 8K resolution. They use essentially rehoused medium format glass to shoot this level of IMAX.

Now, if we're talking modern 65mm shooting, we're likely talking 65mm 5-perf.

This is one of the more exciting concepts behind Red exploring larger sensor sizes and initially showing larger format cameras, which I think are still in the pipeline.

That's all a bit off track. You can project anything you want on an IMAX screen resolution-wise, but it is one of the places where resolution differences are clearly seen.

One EXTREMELY hard truth about IMAX projection is that the screen is bloody big that anything that happens "weird" with your capture optics you're going to see. I have shot and seen image shift on screens of this size and what I would describe the experience as from the audiences perspective is slight "the world is moving" experience.

Not knowing your budget, but knowing you are targeting this projection medium I would do 2 things:

- Shoot Dragon 6K FF around 5:1 if you can.
- Shoot with the best glass you can.

You mentioned the Tokina 11-16mm. I own that lens. It's a great value considering what it does. However, it's far and away from higher end cinema optics. Like way far in my mind.

It does sound like you are going to be shooting at smaller apertures and that helps a lot, but doesn't solve everything. If this was me shooting I would be focused on avoiding apertures that induce diffraction and can "hurt" your pure image quality, but that will depend on the glass you shoot with.

I also don't know the nature of this piece, but some lenses provide a bit more of unique character and that might influence your decision.

My recommendation stands for the Leica Summicron-C T2 Primes as it sounds like fast glass isn't a concern and travelling is part of the equation. You can carry a full set of these lenses on your back if you so desired. They are built fairly rugged and can take it. Heck you could likely carry your camera and 3 or 4 lenses in a bag even.

Much like anything it depends on your level of picky when it comes to glass and image quality.

I use still lenses and cinema lenses. I'm very real about the pros and cons to both. However, any day of the week especially for a gig like this I would go with quality cinema level glass. However, there might be a few occasions where you may want to use something like your Tokina to get that real wide here and there.
 
Ken Wilson said:
A simpler way to put it might be this: How much you think I should enlarge 5k and 4k footage in RCX in a 55" Samsung lcd hd tv to get an idea how the pic will look in a theater or IMAX?
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Somewhere between 66 and 88 inches if we're talking optimal viewing distance.

However, IMAX doesn't go by the standard 30-40 degree viewing angles.

They target around 60 degrees for a standard viewing distance for a more immersive experience. So in your case with a 55" Samsung you'll be sitting around 41" away. The range would be between no closer than 17" and no further than 48" from your screen for an well designed IMAX theater.

*my girlfriend beckons.
 
Ken Wilson said:
@Phil:

I m zeroing for the Summicrons-C for now...
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Ken, are you looking at purchase or rent for the work you do? I have a feeling that the Summicron-C lenses may be the best price/performance look and coverage for the Dragon but have not looked at them side by side with other makers lenses yet. I don't know what if any tests exist from the Band Pro family of Summicron-C on Dragon sensor EPIC's specific to your request but will inquire in house and see what I can find out. Summcron-C lenses are shipping to rental houses and DP's this month so there should be some around for testing / evaluation soon.
 
@Phil: Does IMAX project in 4k?

I think eventually the limit someday will be our eyes resolution. If I could I'll put it to 32k?

Some times I am picky with the picture quality, depends on the shot. I am not consistent. If I see something I really like I want it to look perfect.

The reason I asked for the RCX enlargement is to imitate the IMAX look in my home even in a cropped picture. In your opinion (or anyone's else) how much a 5k r3d should be blown to see it from 6feet in a 55 monitor?

I appreciate you and anyone's advice! Thank you!
 
John_F said:
Ken, are you looking at purchase or rent for the work you do? I have a feeling that the Summicron-C lenses may be the best price/performance look and coverage for the Dragon but have not looked at them side by side with other makers lenses yet. I don't know what if any tests exist from the Band Pro family of Summicron-C on Dragon sensor EPIC's specific to your request but will inquire in house and see what I can find out. Summcron-C lenses are shipping to rental houses and DP's this month so there should be some around for testing / evaluation soon.
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I want to rent to evaluate before I purchase. With the way I shoot and travel it will be impossible and counter productive to rent. In addition to that I shoot 3D only. Before I rent I think just some pic r3d's from an Epic or even better a Dragon will make me happy for few hrs ;-)

I live in Boca Raton, Florida. It's about 1hr north of Mimi by the beach.
 
@ Ken. Check with Gulf Camera (gulfcamera.com). They're in Florida somewhere and might be your closest option. They definitely have the Leica Summilux-C lenses but I'm not sure about Dragon.
 
Ken Wilson said:
@Phil: Does IMAX project in 4k?

I think eventually the limit someday will be our eyes resolution. If I could I'll put it to 32k?

Some times I am picky with the picture quality, depends on the shot. I am not consistent. If I see something I really like I want it to look perfect.

The reason I asked for the RCX enlargement is to imitate the IMAX look in my home even in a cropped picture. In your opinion (or anyone's else) how much a 5k r3d should be blown to see it from 6feet in a 55 monitor?

I appreciate you and anyone's advice! Thank you!
Click to expand...


The answer to your question from what I know at the moment only can be found in is your movie going to be released today? Or is going to be done at the end of the year? There are certain things "at play" that will be changing on this front relatively soon.

Either way. Finish this project in 4K. That would be my best advice on that subject.

I gave you the numbers for standard projection viewing distances both for a theatrical and IMAX theatrical release perspective. It's not about blowing the material up digitally in any way, it's about emulating the standard viewing distance and screen size for your given delivery. You can certainly magnify within Redcine-X Pro to evaluate things like your overall lens performance. However, you are trying to mimic the viewing experience. That's the info that can be found in post #22:


Phil Holland said:
Somewhere between 66 and 88 inches if we're talking optimal viewing distance.

However, IMAX doesn't go by the standard 30-40 degree viewing angles.

They target around 60 degrees for a standard viewing distance for a more immersive experience. So in your case with a 55" Samsung you'll be sitting around 41" away. The range would be between no closer than 17" and no further than 48" from your screen for an well designed IMAX theater.
Click to expand...
 
If you are actually shooting with an IMAX film camera your lens choices are fairly narrow. Probably Hasselblad. Sharpness and resolving power are a concern. Especially if there will actually be a release print made. But if you are shooting digitally (which you are) then I wouldn't be too concerned as any modern lenses (including still lenses) will give you enough image sharpness for the "big screen" (IMAX included).

As others have noted, he Master Primes and Leica C's are the sharpest PL glass available. I also agree that the Leica's seem to give a technically sharper, flatter image.
 
@Phil: Thank you for explaining the previous post #22 in detail. Unfortunately I'm not an expert as you are and I thought (because I could not understand your answer) that you did not understand my question. Now I completely understand it and I appreciate it.

>> Finish this project in 4K. That would be my best advice on that subject.

I'll do that. I plan to create 2 separate files LR in 5 minute segments and then give them to a service who can prepare them for DCP 4K.

>>is your movie going to be released today?

Not today but before the end of this year I hope to release more than one but for the IMAX documentary I shoot for before the end of 2015.

I owe you one at least, like so many people here probably ;-)

Thanks
 
@Adrian: Thank you for your siple yet very powerful and to the point information: "I wouldn't be too concerned as any modern lenses (including still lenses) will give you enough image sharpness for the "big screen" (IMAX included)." I wanted to hear this answer for a long long time.
If they use Hasselblad lenses on a 6x6cm frame then they can even get a 300mb awesome file per frame IF they want after many decades. I have 20yrs old 6x6cm Hasselblad transparencies that still look great.
By the way I like the design of your site. Very stylish!

Ken.
 
Seth Emmons said:
@ Ken. Check with Gulf Camera (gulfcamera.com). They're in Florida somewhere and might be your closest option. They definitely have the Leica Summilux-C lenses but I'm not sure about Dragon.
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I definitely will, I was going to ask you how you know until I looked at your credentials! Wow!
 
@ Ken. All in a day's work. :)
 
I repost here our '12 Summilux-C test, we made it before Dragon specs where published but it's a serious and deep analisys.
After the publiction of this test we were asked from Canon Optics worldwide tech chief to test their new zooms.
We made this test on a demo set from BandPro Munich but now we're finnaly receiving our set after almost 3 years waiting in the line!
Original text in spanish, English version is profesionally translated.

Summilux-C will be avaiable for renting beginning of next month with both metric & imperial scale.

SUMMILUX-C TEST

Optics tests
 
Carlo Rho said:
I repost here our '12 Summilux-C test, we made it before Dragon specs where published but it's a serious and deep analisys.
After the publiction of this test we were asked from Canon Optics worldwide tech chief to test their new zooms.
We made this test on a demo set from BandPro Munich but now we're finnaly receiving our set after almost 3 years waiting in the line!
Original text in spanish, English version is profesionally translated.

Summilux-C will be avaiable for renting beginning of next month with both metric & imperial scale.

SUMMILUX-C TEST

Optics tests
Click to expand...

Nice test Carlo, thanks for sharing. I was surprised to read the Summilux-C's are bigger than the Ultra Primes but I'm not an expert also. I was also happy to learn that Aspheric glasses have a variable curvature radius opposite to the constant curvature of the spherical. For this reason aberrations reduce, especially spherical and geometric ones;

I wish we could have some r3d's of these Fantastic shots. Spain looks beautiful. I love to visit there, several places but mostly Dali's birth place and general area. Possibly this yr as soon as we take delivery of the Dragons.
 
Ken Wilson said:
I was surprised to read the Summilux-C's are bigger than the Ultra Primes...
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You may be thinking of the new Summicron-C T2.0 lenses. They're about 30% smaller and lighter than the Summilux-C T1.4 and are close in size to the UPs.
 
We use them on Dragon every day.... they are the best cinema lenses on the planet, so you basically have no options that will be better for 6K IMAX shooting than Summilux-C. We also use MPs, but wide open, Leicas beat MP.
 
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