Late...

[Stewart Rock]

First of all you didn't apologize for calling Scarlet customers brainless sheeple.

Secondly I'm not anonymous. You could probably even locate my phone number in less than 5 minutes.

Thirdly I'll pass on the opportunity to apologize for suggesting that any job which can't afford a $5k probably is a client that won't be able to tell the difference between a $5k camera and a $1k camera. Nor will I apologize for suggesting that 2 months isn't too long of a wait for an additional 8 stops of dynamic range.

An additional 8 stops of dynamic range is far more significant feature for clients than 4:4:4 color, wavelet compression or RAW. If it works as well as advertised then an additional 8 stops of dynamic range is more significant than 3k in my opinion. Especially since it only costs $1k. I can't think of another $1k upgrade that would make that sort of improvement. So the only reason I can possibly see for rejecting a near doubling of dynamic range in a camera for $1k is that it doesn't matter how good it is--the customer can't afford it. And if the customer can't afford it or sell his clients on that sort of quality boost then his clients were already over paying for an over-featured camera.

I didn't think you would, but there you go.

I didn't once say mindless sheep, that was your interpretation of it.

You have a weird idea of how to make money with your kit and have somehow tied up client perception of gear with delivering acceptable results and getting paid. I really don't get your point, could you explain it better without tripping over yourself to get another stab at me.

 

[Gavin Greenwalt]

I didn't once say mindless sheep, that was your interpretation of it.

--

So Jim has realised he has missed the market, they are adding HDRx™™™ to the mix, putting the price up and trying to convince a professional market that this will make it more 'pro' and that if you buy one, that puts you squarley in the 'pro' leagues, why? Because Jim says so of course. Unfortunately that will probably be enough for some people to get conned into the Scarlet. But only a few.

Yeah that's not condescending at all to scarlet customers, you're right. Suggesting that a scarlet customer is getting "conned" into it isn't insulting in the least.

 

[Justin O'Neill]

I understand they can't just release a simpler version. However, if they had been constantly working on the earlier/simpler versions they may have had all those bugs worked out (speculation, sure) but adding more and more complications makes it even harder.

But if they weren't developing Scarlet as a byproduct (as Gavin says) of Epic the price would most likely go up quite a bit. I think a lot of people underestimate how closely Scarlet is tied to Epic's development.

I know Jim has said in the past that Scarlet improvements would cause a slight delay but that was before the major bug was discovered.

 

[Justin O'Neill]

But the biggest delay is that Epic comes first and it must include all the bells and whistles.

Actually Jim has said things like HDRx and some auto focus functions will not be enabled when Epic first ships. It sounds like they are just getting the core functions that are common to Epic and Scarlet rock solid. This is taking longer then they expected but I think Scarlet benefits directly from every second they spend on these Epic prototypes.

 

[Oliver Moereels]

Stewart,
I get the point about the delays. It feels like it's taking forever and in the meantime you don't want to invest in something else only to see Scarlet coming to market a few moths after. You can't buy scarlet because you just bought something else, but you don't like your new shiny other camera any more aswell. A lot of people here are in that boat.
However, if you need a camera to shoot now, go out and buy one that fits your budget. Make money with it. When Scarlet comes, sell it. Or don't. Buy stuff when you need to, based on your business needs.

But what you say baout the price, I don't get. Yes, it doubled since the 3k for 3k slogan, which, altough catchy, has come back to bite RED in the *ss a few times allready now.
But that comment isn't fair. The fist idea was a palmcorder that did 3k. No high bitrates, no variable framerates, no stills, no nothing. Just 3k standard framerate motion.
Look at what you get now. This has gone from a really cool semipro toy to an incredible pro camera. If you run a production company this should thrill you. The artistic possibilities with this camera are huge.

Now, if you have a problem with Scarlet's price, what are looking at the AF-100 for? They are expected to cost around 6k without lense says panny, so that puts it about even with Scarlet fixed and even more than Scarlet interchangeable. With lower resolution, infinetely worse compression and a form factor from hell.
The competition hasn't beaten red on anything except getting to the market first. They needed to. Because their 'answer' is not the major jump in image quality and resolution they needed to compete. It's a sort of DSLR in a different body that does no stills, slightly better video and costs three times what their dslr costs. If you call Scarlet a scam, than what's this?
As for to expensive for 'smalltime' pros, have you ever counted how many ex's and hvx's are out there? Guess what they cost? See who will be buying Scarlets? Hardly Epic buyers, are they.

Lastly I repeat, get the gear you need when you need it. Not the gear you want whenever it comes out.

 

[Mark L. Pederson]

Wow. I think I might need to take a few days off from REDUSER - what the hell are people drinking?

 

[Gunleik Groven]

Wow. I think I might need to take a few days off from REDUSER - what the hell are people drinking?

Agree.

I am off!

 

[Thomas Church]

Personally, I think the Panasonic AF-100 is going to really hurt Scarlet 2/3 in most segments but digital cinema.

It has been shown that people will sacrifice so much for shallow depth of field.

However an AF100 recording through HD-SDI will have pretty decent quality. There isn't that much compromise.

For jobs that are delivered in SD and even HD for the web I think the AF-100 is gonna be pretty huge.

The only market I see Scarlet 2/3 having a real impact are in the documentary (for the low-light sensitivity and HDR mode) and in independent films. Even so I think many indie films will be shot on AF100s and on SLR lenses.

To be honest, RED should release Scarlet S35 as soon as possible.

 

[Yaque Silva-Doyle]

Wow... Looks like Im not going to be on Reduser for awhile, what a shame.

 

[Jordi Figueras]

Just agree with Mark, Gunleik and Yaque. All this is getting so tedious... almost unbearable and boring.

Jim and Red Team. I'll be reading the forum waiting for news, but I recommend to wait till this absurd tide flushes out...

Cheers!

 

[Michael Schmitt]

Gosh, I take my boys to Chuck E Cheese for a couple hours and come back to find this Stewart Rock guy pooping on all of us. Would you call him a troll?
The 3K for 3K is no longer an issue. Jim has said as much. End of story. Can't we all get along?
I, for one, am delighted with the changes being made and I can't wait to cut that check!

 

[Lorenzo Straight]

Either wait for the best and most affordable camera, or buy another line skipping chunk of mess. I WAIT!

 

[Milan O.]

Hm, that was much ado about nothing Stewart. To understand something I suggest that you at least try to put yourself in another person's (or company's) situation. As several people already mentioned the Scarlet, even with this new pricing, will be a great and cheap camera. I understand that you believe that it would already have been that in the 3k for 3k version, but things in life change, as Jim says. It's not his fault, life is like that.

Here are some possible reasons why Scarlet is to be upgraded along with the Epic before release:
1. As I've understood, one of the main concepts with the upcoming RED cameras is that they will be made in modules. My guess is that it's much more easy to make these modules work together if the brains have similar features.
2. By creating two different systems that aren't so much different they will make it easier to work with both cameras or upgrading sometime in the future, which I also understand is one of the main concepts. I guess that a photographer is more valuable doing his/her job than learning new hardware all the time.
3. In manufacturing costs it might even be cheaper to have two similar systems in the whole. Yes, there is a price increase, but that doesn't make it certain that there wouldn't be one anyway since RED are putting the HDR features into the Epic.

And why are they doing that?

I don't need Jim's answer to answer that. Because if I was him and had already invested so much time, effort and money into this I would like it to be the best f***ing thing available. And then why shouldn't he want that? It's his company and he decides what he wants to do. If they recently made this feature work, of course he wants it in there.

You say that you have a successful video production company. Well, good for you! Then a 1000 $ will be nothing for you.

I won't say like the others that have told you to get another camera if you don't like RED. I'll put it as simple as this:
It's f***ing irritating when people complain all the time about things they don't have the right to complain about. You aren't Jim's wife, child or employee that has to deal directly with how these delays affect their lives, which I can bet my own life are more affected than yours. So, instead of complaining, why don't you start your own camera company, since you know what to do and are such a clever guy, and make the best camera ever to suit your purposes?

I tell you why, because you can't. In my wildest dreams I would never ever complain or try to accuse someone to be dishonest (like you have) for making great tools that have already made many photographers happy. Shame on you.

I rarely post here but this really got me upset. I apologize for my language but Stewart was way over the line.

 

[Zachary Marsh]

I'll put it as simple as this:
It's f***ing irritating when people complain all the time about things they don't have the right to complain about. You aren't Jim's wife, child or employee that has to deal directly with how these delays affect their lives, which I can bet my own life are more affected than yours. So, instead of complaining, why don't you start your own camera company, since you know what to do and are such a clever guy, and make the best camera ever to suit your purposes?

1. It's irritating that you can't recognize how it'd bother someone who is making particular plans around the use of a camera for it to be postponed repeatedly, over and over again. And don't tell me "buy something else" cause I already have. Don't tell me to rent because I do. Then you lose your mind and act like everyone who doesn't worship the ground RED walks on is irrational. Please, gather your thoughts before returning to the discussion. I still plan to purchase a Scarlet but the trend is getting fairly ridiculous. I love RED and what they have told us about these cameras sounds awesome.

2. The camera's have yet to be released. Apparently they are God's gift to mankind through the means of RED and I am excited for that to happen. But it hasn't happened, and keeps getting delayed significantly. How many times have we been a couple months from release only to have massive delays? So instead of complaining about the complainers, shut us up by giving us the goods.

 

[Jeremy Naus]

I don't post often as I don't own a RED yet. But from what I've seen here of the progress I'm more than happy to wait around. As some people say: the longer it takes, the more money I can put aside.

I have faith in RED that when I'll be able to buy a Scarlet it will be awesome and give me a camera beyond my dreams

Go RED

 

[Dara Yem]

Module Design...what happen..?

Module Design...what happen..?

Just thinking aloud, but since the Scarlet HDR programme is now most definately being implemented,would it be possible to offer the option at purchase,in the most simple terms possible,leave the boards out?

A lot of discussion going about the 3k/4k...redcode..HDRx..120fps...all these thing are great...the reason I jump on the Red wagon was the module design system plain and simple that they start out with it. I truely appreciate what RED did to our bussiness..If it isn't for them all these new camera coming from Arri..Pany..and Sony would be year in the future....

BUT I got ask what happen your FUTURE PROOF philosophy ? you decided to add HDRx to the Scarlet and get a price increase don't really matter that much to me, but the delay again IS. Why not just bring out the camera AND give the option to add HDRx or what other cool stuff you have in plan..thru your Module Design idea in the future..eg..MX on the R1...just my 2 cent..just like Graham here.

cheer:aureola:

 

[Jody Neckles]

Personally, I think the Panasonic AF-100 is going to really hurt Scarlet 2/3 in most segments but digital cinema.

It has been shown that people will sacrifice so much for shallow depth of field.

I agree but I don't think it will be a problem as Scarlet will be a far more capable camera and will deliver a ton of value for your buck. TV and the web are full of examples of how people are prepared to sacrifice image quality... this will never change. The great thing about the Scarlet is it will give many people, who were previously priced out of the market, the opportunity to step up....including AF100 owners

For jobs that are delivered in SD and even HD for the web I think the AF-100 is gonna be pretty huge.

No doubt about it.... but lets get real here- what is innovative about the AF-100? Not much. I'm not interested in investing in a camera that will be obsolete within a year or two.

The only market I see Scarlet 2/3 having a real impact are in the documentary (for the low-light sensitivity and HDR mode) and in independent films. Even so I think many indie films will be shot on AF100s and on SLR lenses.

.... not too sure about that. What about commercials, Music Promos, Hi end web commercials, anything with s3D?

 

[Sirima Nikki Wajchapakde]

I can't believe a four day old post already generated 20+ pages. I think Jim's post is simple and straight forward. How many company's owner would come out and admit that they've had trouble developing their products. At least, I never heard of one until now.

As much as I would love Jim to guesstimate the release date, he just couldn't or wouldn't say no more. I wouldn't blame him though, he already said they didn't have a good track record about the release date. BUT I know for sure that we, as a RED owner would get a first bite of Epic when it comes out. Understand about the budget and all those stuffs, but it is what it is, just another thing we have to deal with. I'm just another optimist I'm sure we'll get there with the latest technology Jim could think of, let just hope it sooner than later. Thanks Jim for your honest post.

 

[neil hartop]

Originally Posted by Jim Jannard
"If you want a serious tool to use for professional projects... think RED. No more "soccer mom" thinking. Pros only. Life is short and the clock is ticking. We have decided who we are."

I just read this from Jim in regards to the Scarlet, so that answers my questions then. He knows they have been licked in the scarlet 2/3rds original target market. I run a successful video production company and wanted to use his tools, but it would seem I'm a soccer mom, because i no longer want to play along with the price hikes and missed deadlines.

This is typical of RED just lashing out with ridiculous put downs so the guys still on board with them can justify that warm feeling of superiority they exude so well.

Pros only then is it Jim, read my earlier reference to the term pro.

So Jim has realised he has missed the market, they are adding HDRx™™ to the mix, putting the price up and trying to convince a professional market that this will make it more 'pro' and that if you buy one, that puts you squarley in the 'pro' leagues, why? Because Jim says so of course. Unfortunately that will probably be enough for some people to get conned into the Scarlet. But only a few.

If the higher end, non 'soccer mom', professional market is the way RED want to move forward then still the question remains, who is scarlet for? Because all those guys are buying Epics. What an absolute failure.

Of course, there is no explanation as to why it might be that they can't still offer a camera similar to the original 3K for 3K. And i know why, but I am tired of the fanboy knee jerk reactions so i'll let you work it out.

A lot of people gave me advice to take myself off and buy an AF100, let me offer some advice, do not be drawn in to this idea that you are magically going to be buying a more professional camera, the price hikes and such are because RED are going to have to recoup some of those losses, and they are counting on you to do it for them, the price hikes are just mark ups in disguise as added features.

I totally agree with you stewart,

just cause you own a red one/scarlet/epic doesnt make you a professional. Im sure theres loads of people on this thread with more money than sense and even less talent . You dont go from amature to pro just cause Jim Jannard says so and you bought an expensive camera.

You go from amature to pro through hard work and TALENT.

 

[Sergio Perez]

I am one of those that's going to have a difficult time affording an S35 Scarlet, but do feel that RED did the right move. (Add HDRx™™).

I think that we all have to put this into perspective: The disappointments and furious replies that some are making are on a camera that DOESN'T EXIST YET. If you lived outside the Internet forum and tech blogs, the Scarlet and Epic wouldn't exist, as well as their price range flutuations during its development process and features.

I decided long ago to only judge the Scarlet and Epic packages on their release. Then I'll judge with what is on the market if its the tool I need vs what is already on the market.

I own an HVX200, a 5D and a 7D, and while I love the image the DSLR produce, the aliasing and moire, specially on the wide shots, are a terrible compromise. They do let me play in a different ball game than on the solo HVX days, but they are still not "it". When the Scarlet comes, I probably will have an AF100 or the Sony or Canon counterpart in my shooting gear, but if the Scarlet comes out and outperforms them, as it should, at the 10k price range (ready to shoot), I'll have no problem selling my gear and purchase it.

One should judge the gear when it comes out. Don't follow internet hype- its fun, but take it with a grain of salt.

And do remember the RED ONE is now in possibly ever major production company WORLDWIDE- it certainly is over here in Hong-Kong, for example.