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  • Hey all, just changed over the backend after 15 years I figured time to give it a bit of an update, its probably gonna be a bit weird for most of you and i am sure there is a few bugs to work out but it should kinda work the same as before... hopefully :)

Late...

Terry VerHaar said:
To you guys who keep jawboning here about how Scarlet has has missed the market and AF-100 is just as good, blah, blah, blah... I say - GO BUY THE AF-100 or whatever! Are you trying to convince us that you are right? Do you need us to give you permission? I have shot with a RED. I have seen and worked with RAW and I am not going back to long GOP, compressed, COMPROMISED footage. Does that mean no one should? NO. If it works for you, do it. Have fun.

Please don't keep saying "Scarlet is dead," "they have no one to sell to," etc. I know that I AM THEIR MARKET and I think there are a lot of people here who will flat out disagree with your contentions. Go hang out in the AF-100 forum where you can commune with your brothers about how great the camera is... just like the RED owners do here. I really weary of people talking and talking and talking about how RED has failed so miserably. It just ain't true - ask anyone who owns, or even shot with, a RED ONE.

It's great to have options. People make different decisions for different sets of reasons. I am shooting on my current camera now - and on the RED ONE that I have some access to - and I'll wait for Scarlet because I think it will be worth it. You don't have to (assuming AF-100 delivers on time) - because, obviously, you don't think it is worth it. Personally, that thrills me - I won't have to worry about being in line behind you when the orders flow in. I guess all I am asking is, why the need to diss RED for the way they are approaching their business? Are you that bitter that they aren't doing everything exactly as you'd like? If you are so sure RED has failed with their approach, why not wait until Scarlet ships? If you are right, they won't sell very many and you can come on here and say "I told you so." Until then, let's wait and see.
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Who is jawboning and blah blah blah'ing?

And why exactly can't these people express their opinions about RED's offerings in comparison to other companies' offerings?

I thought the whole point of a professional forum was to discuss and analyze options as a group.

As I noted, there are several pros and several cons in the mentioned systems, so there's a lot of material for discussion.
 
I still don't believe the Scarlet price. I'm not being a forum troll here, I just can't believe that RED can deliver fixed scarlet for less than $10k. No matter how many price updates I see here, I won't believe it until it actually is being sold for less than $10k, ready to shoot.
 
Terry VerHaar said:
To you guys who keep jawboning here about how Scarlet has has missed the market and AF-100 is just as good, blah, blah, blah... I say - GO BUY THE AF-100 or whatever! Are you trying to convince us that you are right? Do you need us to give you permission? I have shot with a RED. I have seen and worked with RAW and I am not going back to long GOP, compressed, COMPROMISED footage. Does that mean no one should? NO. If it works for you, do it. Have fun.

Please don't keep saying "Scarlet is dead," "they have no one to sell to," etc. I know that I AM THEIR MARKET and I think there are a lot of people here who will flat out disagree with your contentions. Go hang out in the AF-100 forum where you can commune with your brothers about how great the camera is... just like the RED owners do here. I really weary of people talking and talking and talking about how RED has failed so miserably. It just ain't true - ask anyone who owns, or even shot with, a RED ONE.

It's great to have options. People make different decisions for different sets of reasons. I am shooting on my current camera now - and on the RED ONE that I have some access to - and I'll wait for Scarlet because I think it will be worth it. You don't have to (assuming AF-100 delivers on time) - because, obviously, you don't think it is worth it. Personally, that thrills me - I won't have to worry about being in line behind you when the orders flow in. I guess all I am asking is, why the need to diss RED for the way they are approaching their business? Are you that bitter that they aren't doing everything exactly as you'd like? If you are so sure RED has failed with their approach, why not wait until Scarlet ships? If you are right, they won't sell very many and you can come on here and say "I told you so." Until then, let's wait and see.
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It was me say the blah blah blah bit you pointed out.

I'm not trying to convince you of anything, I was asking RED why they have jumped ship on a market that they led on 2 years ago, saying they were ahead of the competition and blah blah blah as you say.

My point about the AF100 is that the competition just jumped all over them and RED's response is to delay some more and put the price up.

I don't want to, and won't as I'm not a child, come here and say I told you so. I just want to know what RED have to say to that market they are leaving behind, the market they targeted with 3K for 3K.

You're still in the market for Scarlet, that's cool. I would like to be but it becoming increasingly hard to justify it when there is a camera like the AF100.

You won't see it though, but I am willing to bet the guys at RED do see it, and I posted some questions to hear what they had to say. So far it has been open day for fanboys but then I expected that. It is REDUSER,net after all.

Thanks to the guys who have responded to my posts with an agreeable tone and intelligent argument. You have made some good points that I have taken into consideration.

Just saying, oh yeah well just go buy your AF100 isn't exactly a well rounded response for a grown man.
 
Hans von Sonntag said:
Stewart,

I've read all your post in this thread and I don't see why you just don't buy the Panasonic camera when it's out. Gunleik, Gavin and others gave many valid points why the Red approach is for some the better way. Others use DSLRs and whatnot an are happy. There are also folks who prefer 35mm over any digital format - and have valid points. This is not elitist but are artistic, technical and last but not least economical choices based on experiences people made.

I understand that you are frustrated by all the delay and probable slight price boost but before Red announced Scarlet people who could not afford a costly camera system had to rent. In the pro world owing a camera was rare, and even today most cameramen (or DP to make sound better) don't own a camera system because they don't want to be economical tight to a specified camera system. Owing a camera limits your choice and never makes you rich.

When you have to pay your bills with filmmaking you work and don't wait until a manufacturer builds your dream camera. When Scarlet is out there will be new tempting choices. After the game is before the game.

Hans
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I'm honestly not asking if any of you think I should buy the AF100, If that is what you took from it then I'm sorry I wasn't clearer, I am stating my frustration at the fact that I have been on board with RED for this long long haul. I already own an EX3, EX1R, 5D and 550D, I have worked with many many other cameras from studio floors for local television to film sets, I run my own company now and own all the equipment I need. I can get my work done, I am not waiting for my dream camera and need no advice on that.

And please don't go on using the term pro, it gives me a headache, it's sad and makes you sound less of a pro for actually using it.

I am saying that I was looking forward to the Scarlet, and I am getting sick and tired of added waiting time and cost. So much so that I am glad to see the AF100 entering the market, I think it is more than a match for the scarlet 2/3rds especially for the work i would be using it for. I would have prefered to buy the Scarlet but of course I can't, now I don't need to though. But doesn't that piss you off a bit because it pisses me off. i waited all this time for RED to get the camera out, telling people of the awesome features and why I think it is a killer piece of kit. I've been doing it so long now though that the competition is now much more attractive. My questions to RED in my first post were aimed at RED to see if they in any way realise that the floor has been pulled out from under them in this regard and if they are going to do anything about it. Surely there is now a way to offer the Scarlet in a reduced price form without the HDRx for those of us who never wanted it, and still don't. Is that just history now? if it is then at least I know and i can check out the Af100 in more detail when it comes out.
 
Originally Posted by Jim Jannard
"If you want a serious tool to use for professional projects... think RED. No more "soccer mom" thinking. Pros only. Life is short and the clock is ticking. We have decided who we are."

I just read this from Jim in regards to the Scarlet, so that answers my questions then. He knows they have been licked in the scarlet 2/3rds original target market. I run a successful video production company and wanted to use his tools, but it would seem I'm a soccer mom, because i no longer want to play along with the price hikes and missed deadlines.

This is typical of RED just lashing out with ridiculous put downs so the guys still on board with them can justify that warm feeling of superiority they exude so well.

Pros only then is it Jim, read my earlier reference to the term pro.

So Jim has realised he has missed the market, they are adding HDRx™ to the mix, putting the price up and trying to convince a professional market that this will make it more 'pro' and that if you buy one, that puts you squarley in the 'pro' leagues, why? Because Jim says so of course. Unfortunately that will probably be enough for some people to get conned into the Scarlet. But only a few.

If the higher end, non 'soccer mom', professional market is the way RED want to move forward then still the question remains, who is scarlet for? Because all those guys are buying Epics. What an absolute failure.

Of course, there is no explanation as to why it might be that they can't still offer a camera similar to the original 3K for 3K. And i know why, but I am tired of the fanboy knee jerk reactions so i'll let you work it out.

A lot of people gave me advice to take myself off and buy an AF100, let me offer some advice, do not be drawn in to this idea that you are magically going to be buying a more professional camera, the price hikes and such are because RED are going to have to recoup some of those losses, and they are counting on you to do it for them, the price hikes are just mark ups in disguise as added features.
 
Stewart, you should take yourself off and buy that other camera.
Red offers ridiculously good bang for the buck for the camera. You don't have to be a fanboy to work that one out. Do you seriously think Red is ripping anyone off with camera pricing? I find that incredible.
 
Mark Pugh said:
Stewart, you should take yourself off and buy that other camera.
Red offers ridiculously good bang for the buck for the camera. You don't have to be a fanboy to work that one out. Do you seriously think Red is ripping anyone off with camera pricing? I find that incredible.
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How is it so incredible? The scarlet started at 3K for 3K and it just went skywards from there. But of course it's more 'pro' now. Please don't tell me you don't have even a little voice inside you thinking 'really?'

Thanks for more advice on that camera purchase by the way. That was cool.

Can RED really not compete at the lower end of the market then? It is such a shame. I don't see how it can be true, why can they not couple redcode with a larger sensor and put it in a scarlet brain with out all the other features that are not really relevant at the 'soccer mom' level. If they did i know that me and all the other 'soccer moms' would be falling over each other to buy it, just like we would have been two years ago, when we were RED's target.
 
Stewart Rock said:
How is it so incredible? The scarlet started at 3K for 3K and it just went skywards from there.
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At $15,000, Scarlet would be incredible value. Brain only.
No-one owes you anything.
I'm sorry that your dreams of getting an absolutely great camera for a complete steal, at someone else's expense isn't working out for you.
If you need to buy one of these, and can't afford it, get a loan, or get another job. Stop the moaning, though. Geez.
 
That quote from Jim kind of wound me up, I apologise for my attitude in those later posts. But wow, what a disappointment. Genuinely feel like I have lost out on what was one of my favourite pieces of tech on the horizon.

Like I said earlier, maybe at some point I will get the kind of work that will require the EPIC as that still looks awesome.
 
There's always going to be tech-geeks out there. It is a personality trait --one that is catapulting us up the social food chain I might add. It is only logical that a lot of them spend time here.

I'd much rather spend time reading these pages than every decent car magazine out there, since I never did become a race car driver. :(

:)
 
Stewart Rock said:
Originally Posted by Jim Jannard
So Jim has realised he has missed the market, they are adding HDRx to the mix, putting the price up and trying to convince a professional market that this will make it more 'pro' and that if you buy one, that puts you squarley in the 'pro' leagues, why? Because Jim says so of course. Unfortunately that will probably be enough for some people to get conned into the Scarlet.
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Stewart, I know it can get pretty contentious in here but I would be careful getting drawn into making statements like that.

I know plenty people who would gladly throw down $100k for a digital motion camera that had 15 stops. Scarlet is getting 18 stops for $1,000. You personally may not need more dynamic range but I promise you a ton of shooters do. It is something people have been begging RED for since these forums first went online. Claiming that people who pay an extra $1,000 for HDRx in Scarlet are being "conned" just doesn't make sense. HDRx isn't just a spec on paper, RED has shown two HDRx clips so far and they are stunning.

The fact is, these features that RED has added to Scarlet (with the price increases) are ones us redusers have been begging for since Scarlet was first announced. If you want to blame someone for the price increases, blame us, not Jim. He just listened (for better or worse).

The previous price increase was only $250 for the 2/3" Scarlets and included these features:

1. Increased REDCODE data rates
4. Interchangeable Lens mounts including focus and iris control of electronic RED, Canon and Nikon lenses, along with Zoom data (Scarlet 2/3″ Interchangeable)
5. “Touch Focus Tracking” with electronic lens mounts and RED touchscreen LCD’s (Scarlet 2/3″ Interchangeable and 8x Fixed)
5. Two independent microphone level channels, balanced input circuits, 48V Phantom Power, digitized at 24-bit 48KHz.
7. Scaled 1080P at 60fps

I have a hard time believing that anyone is getting conned by paying $250 extra for all that. Things like Touch Focus tracking are just as useful if not more to low budget shooters.
 
@ Stewart - I don't mean to be insulting or contentious when I say that I would trust Jim's assessment of the market and the technology of the camera more than I would yours. He has more than proven his business acumen with the success of Oakley and he has a long history of camera knowledge and experience dating back 40 or so years and leading to his recent huge success with the RED ONE. Perhaps I am wrong and you are smarter in both areas than Jim is but, certainly you can understand why I might question that. So, I am going to stick with where Jim is going.

You, of course, don't have to. The great thing is that it doesn't take a particular kind of camera to make a great film. On that front, we are all on our own. The focus here, however, is each of us wanting the tools we feel we can best make use of to do our best work. For me, that looks like a camera from RED. Now the RED ONE, soon a Scarlet, and maybe eventually an Epic. For you, an AF-100 and then, who knows. Choice is great and often not irreversible.
 
One thing is to learn about the tools and about the craft through their design, which are interrelated. An other is to put tools in a pedestal and say that without them at your unlimited disposal you can't create and/or hone your craft.

You could make art using Microsoft Paint, or make a movie with a 2001 camera phone and capture the attention of all DPs out there. You could waste time with miles of 60mm film, or a 28k 617. You decide.

:driving:
 
Justin O'Neill said:
Stewart, I know it can get pretty contentious in here but I would be careful getting drawn into making statements like that.

I know plenty people who would gladly throw down $100k for a digital motion camera that had 15 stops. Scarlet is getting 18 stops for $1,000. You personally may not need more dynamic range but I promise you a ton of shooters do. It is something people have been begging RED for since these forums first went online. Claiming that people who pay an extra $1,000 for HDRx™™ in Scarlet are being "conned" just doesn't make sense. HDRx™™ isn't just a spec on paper, RED has shown two HDRx™™ clips so far and they are stunning.

The fact is, these features that RED has added to Scarlet (with the price increases) are ones us redusers have been begging for since Scarlet was first announced. If you want to blame someone for the price increases, blame us, not Jim. He just listened (for better or worse).
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Thanks, I get what you are saying.

Yeah I watched the HDRx clips, they looked great. I get why people want it in the camera, but I don't see why it needed to make it into the entire range of Scarlets and push them further up in price and release date.

I am repeating my self here anyway.

RED have made their call and obviously they are not going to be in the unemployment line due to lost Scarlet sales. But it is a huge shame that the 3K for 3K revolution is now shown to have been just a pipe dream.

As an added note though i would say that the guys willing to throw down $100,000 for HDRx wouldn't be in the market for Scarlet. That will be EPIC territory.

When scarlet finally gets released i hope i am proved wrong and it still finds a place in my kit, but I don't see how.
 
Stewart Rock said:
I run a successful video production company and wanted to use his tools, but it would seem I'm a soccer mom, because i no longer want to play along with the price hikes and missed deadlines.

This is typical of RED just lashing out with ridiculous put downs so the guys still on board with them can justify that warm feeling of superiority they exude so well.
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In fairness, it was a lot of users who recently kept quoting the Ted NAB 2008 clip where he spoke of a camera appealing to (forgive the term) the pro market down to soccer moms. Saying that they are no longer thinking about the soccer moms isn't the same as calling you or anyone else one. It means they're not going after the consumer markets. I think you already know all of this.
 
Nice phrased observation, Roberto. We have the makings of another Rashomon here.


It interesting to compare views on HDRx and EasyHDR to the geographic locations of the users.

Are the posters that get plenty of overcast weather in the UK and northern Europe seeing the world very differently than the posters in the "sunbelt" regions? Or U.S. Pacific Northwest versus the bright and sunny US Southwest.

I've chatted with guys from London and other places in England while I've spent the better part of the last year in the Southern California desert and while I think it's a great addition, almost essential if they can do it, they viewed it as an unnecessary extra.
 
Roberto Lequeux said:
Grounded enjoyment can easily be confused on the receiving end as a projection of superiority.
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LOL, I'm loving reading these little proverbs.

While i'm sure this is true of you Roberto, I think we both know that there is a lot of superiority evident on these forums.

Thanks mate, when I get the chance to work with a RED camera maybe I'll see it more from your side.
 
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