Late...

[Zachary Marsh]

Thanks, I get what you are saying.

Yeah I watched the HDRx™ clips, they looked great. I get why people want it in the camera, but I don't see why it needed to make it into the entire range of Scarlets and push them further up in price and release date.

I am repeating my self here anyway.

RED have made their call and obviously they are not going to be in the unemployment line due to lost Scarlet sales. But it is a huge shame that the 3K for 3K revolution is now shown to have been just a pipe dream.

As an added note though i would say that the guys willing to throw down $100,000 for HDRx™ wouldn't be in the market for Scarlet. That will be EPIC territory.

When scarlet finally gets released i hope i am proved wrong and it still finds a place in my kit, but I don't see how.

See, I agree that the new Scarlet with HDR is a great deal. The price is amazing for what it will do, and it's got the potential to be huge for independent films still even with the price bump.

My problem is the constant pushing back of the release for new features! Release a camera already that we can have in our hands and actually use. The people who wanted the Scarlet have been saying that for two years. They keep saying "Stop upgrading, release." "Stop upgrading, release." And now they are being told, "Well if you can't afford it, you aren't in the market."

I'm not one of those people who won't be able to afford it. But I sure as hell would like to have a Scarlet in my hands now. In fact, I'd still like to have the original Scarlet in my hands now, even with how technology has advanced. I'd prefer it over the D SLR cameras that have been releasing by far.

Then in a couple years, having owned the Scarlet for likely 4 years before the new releases, I'd probably upgrade to that one. But again, I'd like to have the older model now, and I think that is what is frustrating people. If there weren't so many ongoing (known to the public which may be part of the problem) revisions and changes and delays, they'd be happier.

The end point? Release the current model and stop changing it, or it will never release at the current rate.

 

[Gavin Greenwalt]

This is typical of RED just lashing out with ridiculous put downs so the guys still on board with them can justify that warm feeling of superiority they exude so well.

why? Because Jim says so of course. Unfortunately that will probably be enough for some people to get conned into the Scarlet. But only a few.

So if you buy a Scarlet you're doing it because Jim says so? But RED is the one lashing out with ridiculous put downs?

Why aren't you the sensible consumer Mr. "My purchasing decisions are right and you all are mindless sheep". :emote_whack:

The 2/3" has always been sold as a "Pocket Professional Camera" since the moment it was conceived. RED has now decided that they want HDR in all their cameras. I don't see a conspiracy here. Where does appeasing the broke film maker end? Maybe a 24p/25/30p only 2/3" version? That would mean they only need half as much processing power. But for only an extra $3k would you really buy that over the 120fps HDRx™ version?

If I bought a scarlet today and found out if I had waited another 2 months and $1k I would have gotten another 8 stops of dynamic range I would feel beyond stupid. Let's be honest: Scarlet 2.0 isn't coming out for at least another 2 years. Being within 2 months of something and then having to wait 2 years would be silly.

 

[Zachary Marsh]

So if you buy a Scarlet you're doing it because Jim says so? But RED is the one lashing out with ridiculous put downs?

Why aren't you the sensible consumer Mr. "My purchasing decisions are right and you all are mindless sheep". :emote_whack:

The 2/3" has always been sold as a "Pocket Professional Camera" since the moment it was conceived. RED has now decided that they want HDR in all their cameras. I don't see a conspiracy here. Where does appeasing the broke film maker end? Maybe a 24p/25/30p only 2/3" version? That would mean they only need half as much processing power. But for only an extra $3k would you really buy that over the 120fps HDRx™™ version?

If the camera had released two years, or even one year ago, yes I would've purchased it right off the bat.

 

[Paul Watt]

Holy crap. I can't believe the whining about an extra grand for 6 stops. My friend is about to pull the trigger on an Alexa package (amazing camera in it's own right) for around $100 000, and it really seems like there's going to be a camera that can compete (or very much exceed) for under $10 000. Maybe a lot less. $3700 dollars for a body? $900 primes? That's less than the tripod I just bought. I try to read these forums for some decent info, but wading through piles of these stupid arguments is a waste of everyone's time. Especially when the statement has been made that this won't delay the Scarlets any further.

 

[Zachary Marsh]

Holy crap. I can't believe the whining about an extra grand for 6 stops. My friend is about to pull the trigger on an Alexa package (amazing camera in it's own right) for around $100 000, and it really seems like there's going to be a camera that can compete (or very much exceed) for under $10 000. Maybe a lot less. $3700 dollars for a body? $900 primes? That's less than the tripod I just bought. I try to read these forums for some decent info, but wading through piles of these stupid arguments is a waste of everyone's time. Especially when the statement has been made that this won't delay the Scarlets any further.

The difference? the Alexa package is available now. We have yet to know when the Scarlet will be available, and all we know is that it's been delayed.

That's my point. Yes, I love RED and the Scarlet will be great. But it has yet and won't release, as long as it keeps changing. That's what everyone's "pile of stupid arguments" are about.

 

[Justin O'Neill]

My problem is the constant pushing back of the release for new features! Release a camera already that we can have in our hands and actually use. The people who wanted the Scarlet have been saying that for two years. They keep saying "Stop upgrading, release." "Stop upgrading, release." And now they are being told, "Well if you can't afford it, you aren't in the market."

The end point? Release the current model and stop changing it, or it will never release at the current rate.

Here's the thing: the low price of Scarlet is due in large part to the ASIC and its firmware that is common to both Epic and Scarlet. RED can't just go ahead and release a simpler version of Scarlet until they have all that worked out. The ASICs and firmware are what appear to be causing the delay and RED is just adding features to keep Scarlet ahead of the game in the meantime.

 

[Stewart Rock]

So if you buy a Scarlet you're doing it because Jim says so? But RED is the one lashing out with ridiculous put downs?

Why aren't you the sensible consumer Mr. "My purchasing decisions are right and you all are mindless sheep". :emote_whack:

The 2/3" has always been sold as a "Pocket Professional Camera" since the moment it was conceived. RED has now decided that they want HDR in all their cameras. I don't see a conspiracy here. Where does appeasing the broke film maker end? Maybe a 24p/25/30p only 2/3" version? That would mean they only need half as much processing power. But for only an extra $3k would you really buy that over the 120fps HDRx™™ version?

If I bought a scarlet today and found out if I had waited another 2 months and $1k I would have gotten another 8 stops of dynamic range I would feel beyond stupid. Let's be honest: Scarlet 2.0 isn't coming out for at least another 2 years. Being within 2 months of something and then having to wait 2 years would be silly.

You are joking right? Thanks for your input though. Great stuff.

 

[Gavin Greenwalt]

Don't buy cheap crap that will be out of date before it even ships! It's a false economy to save a penny but then be boxed into upgrading in a year or two. Especially when you're buying the fixed lens model. With HDRx you won't feel the need to buy another scarlet any time soon--assuming it works. You've got more than enough resolution. You've got more than enough dynamic range and you've got more than enough frame rate options inside a package that's plenty small.

And if you're working on projects where the client will demand scarlet quality--you can afford the extra price bump. If you can't afford the price bump--your clients won't notice and you're wasting your money anyway.

 

[Danny Lingan]

My problem is the constant pushing back of the release for new features! Release a camera already that we can have in our hands and actually use. The people who wanted the Scarlet have been saying that for two years. They keep saying "Stop upgrading, release." "Stop upgrading, release." And now they are being told, "Well if you can't afford it, you aren't in the market."

That's assuming the delays are just because of the upgrades.

We're all waiting for bleeding edge technology, but many of us are applying the expectations suitable for a traditional company adding just a bit more to an already existing platform.

 

[Zachary Marsh]

Here's the thing: the low price of Scarlet is due in large part to the ASIC and its firmware that is common to both Epic and Scarlet. RED can't just go ahead and release a simpler version of Scarlet until they have all that worked out. The ASICs and firmware are what appear to be causing the delay and RED is just adding features to keep Scarlet ahead of the game in the meantime.

I understand they can't just release a simpler version. However, if they had been constantly working on the earlier/simpler versions they may have had all those bugs worked out (speculation, sure) but adding more and more complications makes it even harder.

Adding HDR requires hardware and software in order to work with the current setup. They aren't keeping ahead of the game by not releasing a camera.

 

[Zachary Marsh]

That's assuming the delays are just because of the upgrades.

We're all waiting for bleeding edge technology, but many of us are applying the the expectations suitable for a traditional company adding just a bit more to an already existing platform.

Every time they've released new upgrades they've said that due to the upgrades, there will also be a delay. I'm assuming they aren't lying. I am NOT assuming that it may be the ONLY reason for delays.

If you don't believe that the new upgrades will result in delays, go check Jim's post about adding HDR to the Scarlet. He says himself it will result in a delay.

 

[Gavin Greenwalt]

I understand they can't just release a simpler version. However, if they had been constantly working on the earlier/simpler versions they may have had all those bugs worked out (speculation, sure) but adding more and more complications makes it even harder.

Adding HDR requires hardware and software in order to work with the current setup. They aren't keeping ahead of the game by not releasing a camera.

The ASICs that go into the epic I believe are the same ASICs that go into scarlet. It's a question of quantity.

EPIC is their "real" product. Scarlet is just a byproduct. The majority of the delays have been in the ASIC development and firmware bugs related to the ASIC. They also weren't going to cut features out of Epic because soccer moms didn't need them and they would speed up development.

Epic is the priority. Epic sets the schedule. Earlier simpler versions still would have needed Epic's ASIC to do their number crunching. Since we haven't seen Epic released yet we can assume that they're still getting the kinks in the chip and firmware worked out. The 'incremental' delay for changing scarlet specs I imagine is very small. The bulk of the time seems to be getting the 'hero' product out the door so that they can release the feature limited 'demo version' aka Scarlet.

 

[Zachary Marsh]

The ASICs that go into the epic I believe are the same ASICs that go into scarlet. It's a question of quantity.

EPIC is their "real" product. Scarlet is just a byproduct. The majority of the delays have been in the ASIC development and firmware bugs related to the ASIC. They also weren't going to cut features out of Epic because soccer moms didn't need them and they would speed up development.

Epic is the priority. Epic sets the schedule. Earlier simpler versions still would have needed Epic's ASIC to do their number crunching. Since we haven't seen Epic released yet we can assume that they're still getting the kinks in the chip and firmware worked out. The 'incremental' delay for changing scarlet specs I imagine is very small. The bulk of the time seems to be getting the 'hero' product out the door so that they can release the feature limited 'demo version' aka Scarlet.

I don't understand how this would possibly make any person who wants to purchase a Scarlet feel better.

 

[Stewart Rock]

Don't buy cheap crap that will be out of date before it even ships! It's a false economy to save a penny but then be boxed into upgrading in a year or two. Especially when you're buying the fixed lens model. With HDRx™ you won't feel the need to buy another scarlet any time soon--assuming it works. You've got more than enough resolution. You've got more than enough dynamic range and you've got more than enough frame rate options inside a package that's plenty small.

And if you're working on projects where the client will demand scarlet quality--you can afford the extra price bump. If you can't afford the price bump--your clients won't notice and you're wasting your money anyway.

So 2/3rds is still future proof. I don't agree. And if i profit from using my equipment, the cost of that equipment is not wasted. It is only wasted if I could make the same money from the results given by a cheaper camera. In that case I think you will find that you will be wasting a bit of money. Maybe take your own advice. HDRx in Scarlet 2/3rds will not make you more money than I make from my existing gear. There is a difference with being able to afford something and justifying that cost in real terms.

Being able to afford a piece of equipment does not put you in a position to dish out advice to those that you think can't, especially in the tone you are using right now.

But by all means use the anonymity of the internet to drop any sense of respect.

I may have done the same in a couple of posts but i followed it with an apology, i will extend the same opportunity to you.

 

[Gavin Greenwalt]

I don't understand how this would possibly make any person who wants to purchase a Scarlet feel better.

Well I'm a Scarlet customer. It makes me feel better because it means that once they get their platform working solidly it's not very difficult to port new features and new sensors (aka the FF35 Monstro) to the new processor.

It means they don't have to start from scratch and hopefully release schedules will really pick up once they get *one* model working since the development will carry over to the other cameras.

It also means that when new features like HDRx come along that are worth the wait it doesn't require RED to start from scratch--the incremental delay and cost is small. Who knows what else might come out for Epic that they can squeeze into future scarlets for a nominal increase in price.

 

[Zachary Marsh]

Well I'm a Scarlet customer. It makes me feel better because it means that once they get their platform working solidly it's not very difficult to port new features and new sensors (aka the FF35 Monstro) to the new processor.

It means they don't have to start from scratch and hopefully release schedules will really pick up once they get *one* model working since the development will carry over to the other cameras.

It also means that when new features like HDRx™ come along that are worth the wait it doesn't require RED to start from scratch--the incremental delay and cost is small. Who knows what else might come out for Epic that they can squeeze into future scarlets for a nominal increase in price.

None of this addresses the concerns hardly at all.

The concern is this: We would've liked to had had the Scarlet announced years ago, that could've easily been released a while ago, and then would've been happy waiting for the new versions to upgrade to when they came out.

I don't care about the price. They can raise it $5k more for all I care if they keep adding features. Just release the damn thing already.

 

[Gavin Greenwalt]

I may have done the same in a couple of posts but i followed it with an apology, i will extend the same opportunity to you.

First of all you didn't apologize for calling Scarlet customers brainless sheeple.

Secondly I'm not anonymous. You could probably even locate my phone number in less than 5 minutes.

Thirdly I'll pass on the opportunity to apologize for suggesting that any job which can't afford a $5k probably is a client that won't be able to tell the difference between a $5k camera and a $1k camera. Nor will I apologize for suggesting that 2 months isn't too long of a wait for an additional 8 stops of dynamic range.

An additional 8 stops of dynamic range is far more significant feature for clients than 4:4:4 color, wavelet compression or RAW. If it works as well as advertised then an additional 8 stops of dynamic range is more significant than 3k in my opinion. Especially since it only costs $1k. I can't think of another $1k upgrade that would make that sort of improvement. So the only reason I can possibly see for rejecting a near doubling of dynamic range in a camera for $1k is that it doesn't matter how good it is--the customer can't afford it. And if the customer can't afford it or sell his clients on that sort of quality boost then his clients were already over paying for an over-featured camera.

 

[Zachary Marsh]

Thirdly I'll pass on the opportunity to apologize for suggesting that any job which can't afford a $5k probably is a client that won't be able to tell the difference between a $5k camera and a $1k camera. Nor will I apologize for suggesting that 2 months isn't too long of a wait for an additional 8 stops of dynamic range.

Where are we getting this 2 months from?

 

[Gavin Greenwalt]

Where are we getting this 2 months from?

My ass. It interprets "short delay" to mean 2-3 months.

 

[Danny Lingan]

I'm not doubting the HDR delay. Or a delay comes with any new feature. But the biggest delay is that Epic comes first and it must include all the bells and whistles. The 6k package is dependent on the 28k (or whatever it costs) brain for technology, so the damn thing just hasn't been ready for release.

I was unclear in my language.