KOMODO....

[Jarred Land]

guys... play nice.

 

[Bastien Tribalat]

Komodo exists because our high end customers asked us to solve that. And we did.

This reminds me of some behind the scene footage from the set of Transformers 4 (a film I hated so much but that doesn't take anything away from the talented people behind it ^^) where we see Michael Bay running after Mark Wahlberg with a RED camera (Epic Dragon if I recall correctly) in his hands. Just the brain, a small cine lense, an ND TAPED to the lense, the screen and the battery. I can't find the image right now but I'm pretty sure this illustrates perfectly the type of action shoots scenarios for what Komodo is taylored.

 

[Christoffer Glans]

That's funny.. because we hear about it on almost every single major production... and that's not a RED thing.. its an everything thing. People just have learned to live with it. Just a few weeks ago the cameras that you are comparing Komodo to were eliminated from a major production because of it. Again.... Komodo exists because our high end customers asked us to solve that. And we did.

But anyways... what you are asking for is a completely different camera... and a camera that we already make. When you say give us double the framerates and these other things and then we will pay double the price... And I'll say go check out the Dragon-X.

Again.. I understand the confusion.

But the Dragon-X is from what I know, not double price, it's close to triple, excluding all extra gear. Let me explain my situation, I have the DSMC2 6K Dragon and it's a great camera. However, because I'm an owner-operator, it's sometimes harder to get some types of shots since adding dollys, sliders, gimbals etc. to that gear required for the weight of a kitted DSMC2 demand a pretty big collection of complex side gear. Komodo is a better choice because of its size, but its capped in framerates that I (and presumably others as well) often film in. So I either have the choice of keeping my DSMC2 but being limited in how I can operate the camera, or getting the Komodo and operating easily, but not able to shoot either HDRx or slight slow motion.

I'm not against global shutter, I've personally not encountered projects or people who suffered from rolling shutters. I do know that people don't use BM's because of this, even though the Ursa Mini G2 has a very fast rolling one. But there's no denying its benefits, so global shutter isn't really the problem.

I don't know the tech used in Komodo, but is it possible to have a dual system? To increase framerates in rolling shutter mode and being able to switch to global shutter, capping the framerates when needed? I'm just brainstorming here. I really like everything about Komodo, but the limitation in framerates is a drawback. Is having 50 fps really making Komodo being an entirely different camera?

 

[Samir Patel]

Thank you Jarred for the updates AND the "RED TEAM" button.

 

[Bob Gundu]

Thank you Jarred for the updates AND the "RED TEAM" button.

LOL

 

[David Rasberry]

But we are not doing scientific studies, we create art and cinematography. Rolling shutters rarely create problems on professional cameras these days and I've never really heard anyone doing a project that they had problems. If there are cut-off flashes for example, it was an easy fix in grade. There are benefits to rolling shutters over global shutters that might create further headaches.

There's no question that a global shutter as a tech in itself is better than a rolling one, but is it worth the drawbacks compared to a cutting edge rolling shutter sensor that might manage faster fps in a creative space? If people are doing science with their cameras, I don't think Komodo is their first choice.

NASA shoots some gorgeous footage that qualifies as fine art in my book, the Mars Rovers have cameras that use the same Kodak sensor that is in my Bolex, which is a 24fps only 2K DCI format CDNG raw camera.
There are a lot of independent art film makers out there for whom the kind of IQ and color science that Komodo seems destined to have is a lot more interesting than whether it can shoot faster than 24fps or 30fps at 6k.
And price is definitely a limiting factor for most of us. $5k or less for a Komodo body with a smart phone interface cradle of some kind definitely puts it in reach. More than $6k is a stretch. $8k is out of reach.
Global shutter is a huge plus in my book. That and accurate fine color discrimination, something which very few digital motion cameras can approach. Almost none can accurately reproduce the color palette of Max Ginsburg, a painter that Suzy and I are working on a documentary about.

 

[Christoffer Glans]

NASA shoots some gorgeous footage that qualifies as fine art in my book, the Mars Rovers have cameras that use the same Kodak sensor that is in my Bolex, which is a 24fps only 2K DCI format CDNG raw camera.
There are a lot of independent art film makers out there for whom the kind of IQ and color science that Komodo seems destined to have is a lot more interesting than whether it can shoot faster than 24fps or 30fps at 6k.
And price is definitely a limiting factor for most of us. $5k or less for a Komodo body with a smart phone interface cradle of some kind definitely puts it in reach. More than $6k is a stretch. $8k is out of reach.
Global shutter is a huge plus in my book. That and accurate fine color discrimination, something which very few digital motion cameras can approach. Almost none can accurately reproduce the color palette of Max Ginsburg, a painter that Suzy and I are working on a documentary about.

Yes, I agree. But $8K for a camera that does essentially what we expect from a 6K Dragon, but with PDAF and a global shutter would actually be very disruptive in the industry, especially in such a small body.
Actually, no digital can accurately reproduce a color palette of the physical world. The best way to do that is to have the actual paintings and color match the material to that. But even then, people's viewing screens will change everything.

 

[David Rasberry]

Yes, I agree. But $8K for a camera that does essentially what we expect from a 6K Dragon, but with PDAF and a global shutter would actually be very disruptive in the industry, especially in such a small body.
Actually, no digital can accurately reproduce a color palette of the physical world. The best way to do that is to have the actual paintings and color match the material to that. But even then, people's viewing screens will change everything.

There is a difference between accurate reproduction on a monitor and the camera not being able to capture the difference between two similar colors at all. The difference between alizarin crimson next to the vermillion red and the dark burnt umber to the left of it for instance. Most cameras, even some otherwise decent still cameras, will not see those as being different.

Let there be one modestly priced digital cinema camera in the market that prioritizes ultimate image quality in depth and leave the me too paper spec race to the rest. Vive la diferencia!

 

[Hrvoje Simic]

Upon noticing that the simplicity of pointing the error in reasoning, thus quickly clearing out the potential misinterpretation, was subsituted with a XXL sheet containing logical fallacy within the first two rows of the text (Strawman), I made a judgement call not to spend my Saturday evening on what appears to drift from a productive direction.

Are you saying that on an online forum, some people should be silent, even though their remarks, criticism, questions, suggestions and speculation drives a discourse better than random comments about nothing? What is your point? That you don't like what I say? That is not the same as trying to point out that a frequent poster on an online forum should stay quiet just because you dislike it, which is essentially what you say here.



Ty's comment was irrelevant since all it was had to do with complaining that I sound negative. As far as I know, I don't do ad hominems and questioning, criticizing, making suggestions, analyzing the market, speculating about Komodo should be something everyone is doing. Why do some feel the need to tell others to be quiet? This is a place where customers of Red can have a discourse of the tech and have communication with Red directly. Both you and Ty comments on another user's viability to speak out. If you don't like it, skip through it, you two are in no place to judge the existence of another member of this forum. Simple as that.

If you think I'm off the mark, comment on that specific thing, why its off the mark and I'll answer that, the rest is just unnecessary noise far more than any post on topic that I've written.



Maybe you should read it again and see what context it's about. My remark was in relation to the Hydrogen release in which people flooded with praises of something that they knew close to nothing about. Praising something without specs and info is not the same as putting forth questions and criticism based on the info we know. The remark I answered to were the idea that I have an agenda with what I write. The simple answer is that I don't have any agenda, but I like to chime in with the questions and criticism that was so needed during the Hydrogen reveal since there was a lot of kool-aid going into that one. A few did the same thing back then, but were just as criticized as having an agenda when they questioned the fact the processor of the phone was last gen, that the holo-screen might not be enough for it to take off
on the market. That was what I mean by a reality check, to be another voice through the constant blind praises to this. Of course, some people don't like discourse, don't like criticism, don't like people questioning stuff. But you have no real right to boss around just because you don't like it.

And the reasoning behind it is simple. To question, criticize and speculate as I do has the purpose of urging improvements to Komodo. I have my personal interest in staying within the Red infrastructure and I want Komodo to be even better than what has been speculated based on the info given from Jarred. Just saying "awesome camera!!!" won't do any of that. Only by asking for improvements will that come to the table. Just take the many criticizing posts people made about proprietary media and how they instead wanted something like CFast... Jarred's response was to implement it to Komodo and write "we listened".

Jarred and Red constantly listen to us users, to our concerns and suggestions. If I'm painted as the annoying guy through how much I discuss these things I would like to see improved on the Komodo, I really don't care as long as there's a little chance of pushing the tech a little further.

So, with the way you jump onto criticizing the way I write, how little you like my posts, Ty's remark that he thinks I sound negative in my posts, I wonder what you want to achieve?

And maybe I do have an agenda... I want Komodo to be better than what we can speculate from the info we know. And we can speculate quite accurately based on the info released. That is my agenda with this. Stop thinking of it as a complimentary camera, stop thinking of it as dislocated from the market, just make a damn good small A-Cam for a low price. And through that I see further improvements that I think are necessary, such as increasing fps at FF. You can call that "wishful thinking fantasy", I see it as urging Red to improve upon the camera they are developing. And I think you should stop playing a forum moderator with personal forum rules, I do precisely what this forum is meant for, discourse.

 

[Hrvoje Simic]

Rolling shutters rarely create problems on professional cameras these days and I've never really heard anyone doing a project that they had problems. If there are cut-off flashes for example, it was an easy fix in grade.

I am doing a show right now where rolling shutter often causes flash frame cut-off and no it's not an easy fix in grade. Part of the frame is not exposed the same way. You cannot "grade" what is not captured.

 

[Robert Hofmeyr]

Doesn't the motion mount have a global shutter mode? Is there a difference between a sensor with a global shutter and the global shutter effect of the motion mount?

 

[Hrvoje Simic]

Actually, no digital can accurately reproduce a color palette of the physical world.

Actually, most high-end cameras and many large sensor con-/pro-sumer cameras, in the context of sensor performance, can "reproduce" (capture and enable reproduction in presentation) most of the visible color palette. To a level of visual reference.
If they are adequately setup and shot, their material is manipulated in post adequately and viewed on proper and calibrated screen.
Performance limitations are mostly in image value extremes.

 

[Jake Wilganowski]

If it isn't obvious by now, this is Red's small crash and action cam with global shutter. High rez, cinema quality, limited frame rates. Made tiny to stick and mount in weird places. That is the main target use for this cam.

Do with it what you will but thats why it was made.

 

[Maz Mawlawi]

Thanks for the reply Jarred.
I was hoping Komodo covers most the following and hopefully it does. To recap what I understood:
- 6k camera
- light weight...hopefully lightweight enough to be used with a smaller gimbal like Zhiyun/ronin s???
- autofocus. Hopefully useable like Canon/Sony with face detection, tracking etc...??
- Red color Science /R3d recording?
- 60 fps at 4k
-cinema quality image.
- reduced rolling shutter effect.
If all of this is correct then I must say congrats as this will be a fantastic camera that no only is good for Cinema use but also great for a lot of owner/OPS and smaller crews.

 

[Christoffer Glans]

Upon noticing that the simplicity of pointing the error in reasoning, thus quickly clearing out the potential misinterpretation, was subsituted with a XXL sheet containing logical fallacy within the first two rows of the text (Strawman), I made a judgement call not to spend my Saturday evening on what appears to drift from a productive direction.

Why can't you stop playing forum moderator? It's your choice to spend a Saturday doing this, but I don't know why. If you have issues with me giving criticism or question something, I couldn't care less. We can disagree on ideas about Komodo, but you focus on the wrong things and I can't answer you further than what I already did, which it seems you ignore to some degree. And there's no strawmanning when I try to frame your argument in order to ask the question about what your point was. A strawman is to simplify someone's argument in order to counter it more easily, but you can't do that if the argument to be strawmanned is so vague that it needs to be understood first.

I am doing a show right now where rolling shutter often causes flash frame cut-off and no it's not an easy fix in grade. Part of the frame is not exposed the same way. You cannot "grade" what is not captured.

Done the same and flashes overexpose to such a degree that I can grade the half that's missing so that it matches the other half. Key thing is that a flash is just one frame, which can be fixed. Point being, it's so situational and the amount of productions I've seen doing fine with rolling shutters says to me that it's not really a big deal. However, I don't argue against the benefits of a global shutter, I just say that I think 50-60 fps is a more useful function for what it enables you to do with the camera than a global shutter. If the choice is between a global shutter and 60 fps I'd take 60 fps in a heartbeat.

Actually, most high-end cameras and many large sensor con-/pro-sumer cameras, in the context of sensor performance, can "reproduce" (capture and enable reproduction in presentation) most of the visible color palette. To a level of visual reference.
If they are adequately setup and shot, their material is manipulated in post adequately and viewed on proper and calibrated screen.
Performance limitations are mostly in image value extremes.

No capture medium can capture the entire visible spectrum our eyes can see. There's also the problem of how our eyes interpret colors based on the situation. But even so, the most accurate capture medium and the most accurate calibrated screen becomes irrelevant as no audience in the entire world will view the material on something that is even close to that calibrated standard. We aren't color grading for another colorist in their studio setup, we color grade for an audience looking at mobile phones, TV sets, cinema and so on. So if the goal is to be as accurate as possible, do a color grade on a calibrated screen with the original paintings as a reference. That's the closest we can get to "accurate". But in the hands of the audience and viewer, there's no such thing as "accurate" really, and it will never be unfortunately.

 

[Ryan Genova]

If it isn't obvious by now, this is Red's small crash and action cam with global shutter.

Hopefully the DR and noise issues that can be associated with global shutters have been solved or at least mitigated. I think the Blackmagic Production Camera/Ursa 4K tested at about 8.5 stops and it had some pretty horrible fixed pattern noise in the shadows even at native ISO. Clearly RED would never be satisfied with that type of performance, but I'm curious what the trade-off will be.

 

[Bastien Tribalat]

Guys, I'm pretty sure Jarred did not say it is Global Shutter because of that type of sensor isn't really made anymore.
Komodo probably uses a rolling shutter but a very very fast one to compensate.

 

[Christoffer Glans]

Guys, I'm pretty sure Jarred did not say it is Global Shutter because of that type of sensor isn't really made anymore.
Komodo probably uses a rolling shutter but a very very fast one to compensate.

Sure, as mentioned, there are drawbacks to a global sensor and I'd rather see a sensor that pushes DR and low light sensitivity over a global shutter. However, if it's fast enough, it should also be able to do higher framerates, since the readout is the bottleneck. I'm not sure who's manufacturing the actual Red sensors these days, but maybe they reached a milestone in global shutters that Komodo gets to be the field test for, who knows.

 

[Hrvoje Simic]

No capture medium can capture the entire visible spectrum our eyes can see.

Today. In 2019. You can view visually referent colours.
Captured by a digital camera.

Not technically ALL visible range but enough to get a visually referent impression of the image on the screen.

Done the same and flashes overexpose to such a degree that I can grade the half that's missing so that it matches the other half.

Sounds good.

We have multiple shots where that doesn't work.

Also, rolling shutter distorts.

Key thing is that a flash is just one frame, which can be fixed.

By using a camera which doesn't have rolling shutter issues.

 

[Jake Wilganowski]

Guys, I'm pretty sure Jarred did not say it is Global Shutter because of that type of sensor isn't really made anymore.
Komodo probably uses a rolling shutter but a very very fast one to compensate.

Agree