KOMODO....

[Mendes Nabil]

@Jarred

Would you say that Komodo pure image quality (dynamic range / color science) is at least at the Mysterium X level?

 

[Gregory Karydis]

Loving this!!!
Jarred, every time you spill a little bit more of those beans, I'm liking Komodo more and more!!!

Aside from the obvious uses, it could very well suit the needs of a wildlife or fashion photographer.
Any chance we can have 1-24 fps options?
Or even single shot?
Got a few ideas where computational photography, AI and machine learning can leverage the attached smart device (if there's no extra processing juice onboard) to do some freaky stuff!

 

[Alvise Tedesco]

So if you ONLY shoot 60fps every day all day and don't want to shoot in 4k to get there then you shouldn't buy a Komodo. Obviously.

Cool!
Push it to 50fps at 4KHD!

 

[Christoffer Glans]

You can be a critic, that is ok. We have lots of them.

But saying in a blanket statement that a camera that is half the price shouldn't have double the performance that's not a fair statement... you are talking about one box. And jeeze... using the standard critics go-to argument, our cameras have literally had twice the performance and been half the price for of ARRI cameras for years in almost every spec and they still do just fine...

Nope, that wasn't a fair statement, but it caught attention
I know the Pocket doesn't have double the performance and it shouldn't have. However, I'm also talking in a future sense, analyzing the track record of improvements from these other companies, it's not unreasonable to speculate the performance of upcoming cameras that might land in the same ballpark price as Komodo just when Komodo is ready for shipment or slightly after its release.

I get it though.. The Hydrogen Camera module created confusion. This sensor was also going to be used for the Hydrogen module before that ended , which instantly created a ton of expectations and assumptions that crossed over to Komodo since that Hydrogen camera module was specifically targeted for the market you are convinced that Komodo belongs in. And so there is where you are right in pointing the finger, because It automatically inherits those comparisons.

I think this is what I mean. If Komodo was to be just a complimentary camera it would have had that focus from the get-go. But since the choice was made to evolve this camera into its own thing that can work with Hydrogen and give a discount for Hydrogen users, it not only inherited the "Hydrogen module" status, but has become its own camera release. It's no longer really just a complimentary camera, even if that was the initial idea. Maybe internally at Red, it's handled like that, but officially, it's being talked about as its own thing.

So I urge you to go full ahead and let it be just that. It's still a complimentary camera, but if Komodo could inherit some of the basic features of a normal DSMC2, in order to have features like HDRx and slightly higher fps for basic high-speed shots and HFR situations, that would make it more than just complimentary, it would make it a primary choice as an A-cam for many who want a smaller camera body as their A-cam.

BTW.. The frame rate isn't artificially neutered to somehow protect our existing camera lineup as the conspiracy theorists suggest. It's a new technology for us and our sensor team also for the first time integrated PDAF pixels for focus and ultimately image quality and it's size were the main drivers. When I said that you wont buy Komodo for it's frame rates... I meant it.

But there are so, so many other things that are more important for this camera. So if you ONLY shoot 60fps every day all day and don't want to shoot in 4k to get there then you shouldn't buy a Komodo. Obviously.

I don't mean that buying Komodo is for framerates, but all the possibilities I mentioned above are valid and powerful creative tools and having the options for HDRx, slight high speed, HFR would make this more than just complimentary, as I think the camera already is at the moment. So my biggest wish for Komodo is that it gets a buff on the framerate side of things, in order to be a fully-fledged small Red camera.

If that would require a slight increase in price in order to put a bit more processing power into it, I'm all for that. I just want Komodo to grow out of its skin as a complimentary camera and become its own thing instead of being in limbo between a complimentary camera and the Hydrogen module.

 

[Gregory Karydis]

If that would require a slight increase in price in order to put a bit more processing power into it, I'm all for that. I just want Komodo to grow out of its skin as a complimentary camera and become its own thing instead of being in limbo between a complimentary camera and the Hydrogen module.

Sounds like it may need a lot more than a slight price increase.

Bringing Komodo into this world is a process that began a long time ago, as Jarred said, before Hydrogen was in the picture.

Besides being a "baby dragon", Komodo brings a whole set of features that are unique to a Cinema Camera.
Asking for increased specs before we know what they actually are, may entail more than just a price increase.
It probably includes an entire redesign of the system that sits behind the sensor...
New cooling solution, updated power requirements, more (and expensive) sensor-side memory, which will further increase the TDP, outer shell redesign... the list goes on.
Possibly even the size.
And something tells me it won't just take a couple of days to bang it all up together, so add at least some months of further delays.
Komodo definitely feels like it will be creating a segment of it's own.
For faster fps, maybe look at DSMC2, because DSMC3 is not here just yet.

As for the "module" part of the equation, think of it like this:
Komodo is a stand-alone camera that you can use with the built-in controls and a 4K SDI external display for passive monitoring.
Komodo + a smart device with cabled connection = handling like a more compact DSMC2.
Komodo + Hydrogen = Cable free handling like a compact DSMC2

Let me know if I'm off target Jarred.

...Baby Dragon, which became Komodo...

If Komodo is a baby dragon, does that make you the Father of Dragons?

 

[Christoffer Glans]

Sounds like it may need a lot more than a slight price increase.

Bringing Komodo into this world is a process that began a long time ago, as Jarred said, before Hydrogen was in the picture.

Besides being a "baby dragon", Komodo brings a whole set of features that are unique to a Cinema Camera.
Asking for increased specs before we know what they actually are, may entail more than just a price increase.
It probably includes an entire redesign of the system that sits behind the sensor...

It won't be triple the price it is supposed to have now. The thing about framerate is that people confuse high framerate with wanting 120 - 300 fps for some Phantom-spec camera, but 50-60 fps is a basic feature of media today. It's not about slow-motion per se, it has more applications than that. 50 fps is required in order to do HDRx at 25 fps. HFR media need around 60 fps. On top of that, the most common slow-motion framerate in narrative work is between 50-60 fps, with numbers higher than that becoming very situation-based. Having that option with HDRx or just shooting in 50-60 fps also helps in VFX where you get more frames for the accurate camera tracking before converting down to half its speed.

If the speculated price for Komodo is $5000-$6000 I have no problem pushing that to $8000 or $9000 if that means we get 60 fps 6K in this thing. I know that it would require a buff to the internal tech, but I would say its worth it far more than people seem to realize. To say that a buff in framerate is just about slow-motion shooting is missing the point, I'd say that in order for a camera today, especially a Red, to be versatile and as complete for as many as possible, 50-60 fps is a basic feature. And I would argue, as I mentioned to Jarred, that Komodo should be its own thing, not exist by a complimentary philosophy. Let it be the small A-cam for projects that need smaller cameras, which would require having some basic features to make it as complete as possible.

Of course, Jarred knows best about the capabilities of the sensor and it might be that it's entirely impossible to reach 50 or 60 fps at 6K FF, but I really hope that it gets looked into and taken seriously as a change to buff Komodo in this area. I think we would all agree that making Komodo as complete a camera it can possibly be in that small body would be good for everyone.

 

[Jake Wilganowski]

this thread is very wordy

 

[Robert Hofmeyr]

This was posted yesterday. AFAIK the first confirmed image shot on Komodo. Jarred, any chance of something with a bit more resolution?

Also, looks like it may be possible to use it without an attached monitor.

Jarred can you pls mount a Komodo to someone's forehead?

This photo makes the camera look so much smaller than I actually realized: https://www.instagram.com/p/B4BBD03hPaG/?utm_source=ig_web_copy_link

Is this THE CRADLE tm in this photo? Very much looking forward to seeing all the little accessories and bits and bobs you guys make for this thing. I would love to see a nice top handle for skate video style filming, and looks like you already have the side handles covered.

 

[Robert Hofmeyr]

It won't be triple the price it is supposed to have now. The thing about framerate is that people confuse high framerate with wanting 120 - 300 fps for some Phantom-spec camera, but 50-60 fps is a basic feature of media today. It's not about slow-motion per se, it has more applications than that. 50 fps is required in order to do HDRx at 25 fps. HFR media need around 60 fps. On top of that, the most common slow-motion framerate in narrative work is between 50-60 fps, with numbers higher than that becoming very situation-based. Having that option with HDRx or just shooting in 50-60 fps also helps in VFX where you get more frames for the accurate camera tracking before converting down to half its speed.

If the speculated price for Komodo is $5000-$6000 I have no problem pushing that to $8000 or $9000 if that means we get 60 fps 6K in this thing. I know that it would require a buff to the internal tech, but I would say its worth it far more than people seem to realize. To say that a buff in framerate is just about slow-motion shooting is missing the point, I'd say that in order for a camera today, especially a Red, to be versatile and as complete for as many as possible, 50-60 fps is a basic feature. And I would argue, as I mentioned to Jarred, that Komodo should be its own thing, not exist by a complimentary philosophy. Let it be the small A-cam for projects that need smaller cameras, which would require having some basic features to make it as complete as possible.

Of course, Jarred knows best about the capabilities of the sensor and it might be that it's entirely impossible to reach 50 or 60 fps at 6K FF, but I really hope that it gets looked into and taken seriously as a change to buff Komodo in this area. I think we would all agree that making Komodo as complete a camera it can possibly be in that small body would be good for everyone.

Cristoffer, if you had to choose between PDAF + global shutter and 6K @ 50fps, what would you choose? I would personally go for the 50fps, but I think I am in the minority.

 

[Christoffer Glans]

Cristoffer, if you had to choose between PDAF + global shutter and 6K @ 50fps, what would you choose? I would personally go for the 50fps, but I think I am in the minority.

While PDAF and global shutter are two very powerful features, I rarely see the real-world application for this kind of camera. If it's supposed to be complementary to a DSMC2, it's primarily supposed to be aimed at cinema and narrative work. PDAF or any kind of autofocus rarely, if at all, works well in that field since you want control and reliability throughout a shot. If there's just a slight shift in focus you can ruin a take so no one who shoots that would use it over a traditional remote geared focus. And global shutter is really nice, but most sensors in the world have become so good at their rolling shutters that I rarely hear any problems about those things from actual projects and productions.

So, would I choose 6K at 50 fps over these things? In a heartbeat. What you can achieve with 50-60 fps is more than just slow motion and it's a tool for the end result of your projects that actually has a visible impact on what kind of things you can do with the camera, much more than PDAF and global shutter.

I don't know if a global shutter locks a sensor to that performance, but maybe a dual-shutter option is possible to implement? Global shutter at normal speeds and the possibility to change to a rolling shutter for increased readout of the sensor? I don't know the specifics of the technology, but I still think it's worth looking into if there's a chance to buff Komodo in this area.

 

[David Rasberry]

It seems evident from Jarred’s comments that Komodo will do 60fps at 4k for sure. So that will cover the broadcast 60fps SDI output and slo-mo. Probably 120fps @ 2k. It also puts it on par with virtually all 4k alternatives in its price range.
Jarred also mentioned solving a long term problem with CMOS sensors. Might we finally see a global shutter CMOS sensor with high DR?
I would take that over high frame rates any day.

 

[Donald MJ Anderson]

Nope, that wasn't a fair statement, but it caught attention
... if Komodo could inherit some of the basic features of a normal DSMC2, in order to have features like HDRx and slightly higher fps for basic high-speed shots and HFR situations, that would make it more than just complimentary, it would make it a primary choice as an A-cam for many who want a smaller camera body as their A-cam.

.

"
If that would require a slight increase in price in order to ... become its own thing instead of being in limbo between a complimentary camera and the Hydrogen module."

Now hydrogen is dead RED might have more flexibility with the price - the komodo was already too rich for a lot of hydrogen owners, but to their credit, I felt RED was trying to bridge that gap, trying to make it somewhat affordable so that the H1 furore was reduced.

As I say, now Hydrogen is RIP, (which I see as a good thing for resources, focus etc) an extra boost to specs and to cost wont rock the hydrogen apple cart cause that cart caught fire and rolled away.

 

[David Rasberry]

There is a reason that most critical application scientific instrumentation cameras and astronomical cameras still use global shutter CCD's. Each frame is a self consistent time coherent image. With rolling shutters, even fast ones, picture elements that occur in portions of the frame not being scanned are not recorded. The classic example is flash banding from still cameras at live events. If one wanted to interpolate slow mo frames into a normal frame rate video stream, that can be done easily with global shutter frames. It is extremely difficult to do that without visible artifacts with any form of rolling shutter.

 

[Christoffer Glans]

It seems evident from Jarred’s comments that Komodo will do 60fps at 4k for sure. So that will cover the broadcast 60fps SDI output and slo-mo. Probably 120fps @ 2k. It also puts it on par with virtually all 4k alternatives in its price range.

You loose supersampling by doing 4K for 4K. It's good that we might have 60 fps in 4K at least, but if we look at alternatives at these price ranges, they often do an internal supersampling before outputting 4K.
It's easy to see the loss of fidelity if you shoot 4K high speed with higher compression on a regular DSMC2. You need resolution to get the fidelity lost by the compression and then supersample it down to 4K.

As I say, now Hydrogen is RIP, (which I see as a good thing for resources, focus etc) an extra boost to specs and to cost wont rock the hydrogen apple cart cause that cart caught fire and rolled away.

Exactly, I rather have a fully-fledged super small Red camera than something feeling like a half step within Red's lineup. If it needs faster clock speeds, maybe a different cooling material or whatever needed. It will add cost and increase the price, but if it's pretty much a complete camera under $10 000 we are back in the philosophy of Red doing disruptive cinema tech that changes the entire landscape of how to do movies and projects.

 

[Hrvoje Simic]

Would you agree that a camera that is half the price of Komodo shouldn't have specs double the performance of Komodo?

So giving a reality check

That has nothing to do with reality check.

 

[Christoffer Glans]

There is a reason that most critical application scientific instrumentation cameras and astronomical cameras still use global shutter CCD's. Each frame is a self consistent time coherent image. With rolling shutters, even fast ones, picture elements that occur in portions of the frame not being scanned are not recorded. The classic example is flash banding from still cameras at live events. If one wanted to interpolate slow mo frames into a normal frame rate video stream, that can be done easily with global shutter frames. It is extremely difficult to do that without visible artifacts with any form of rolling shutter.

But we are not doing scientific studies, we create art and cinematography. Rolling shutters rarely create problems on professional cameras these days and I've never really heard anyone doing a project that they had problems. If there are cut-off flashes for example, it was an easy fix in grade. There are benefits to rolling shutters over global shutters that might create further headaches.

There's no question that a global shutter as a tech in itself is better than a rolling one, but is it worth the drawbacks compared to a cutting edge rolling shutter sensor that might manage faster fps in a creative space? If people are doing science with their cameras, I don't think Komodo is their first choice.

 

[Christoffer Glans]

That has nothing to do with reality check.

What are you talking about? You put two sentences from two different posts together and created a new context to answer to.

This is called "Contextomy" fallacy.

 

[Hrvoje Simic]

What are you talking about? You put two sentences from two different posts together and created a new context to answer to.

This is called "Contextomy" fallacy.

Okay, let my try to clarify:

I'm talking about:
- 56000 posts in this thread of your specs/market positioning/business strategy/wishful thinking fantasy process, about a camera which is not even out yet, and most of info about it is not available
- Ty's comment on the post I quoted suggesting you went off-board with a specs/price comment
- The intro of the other post where you comment his reaction, suggesting a reality check by perceiving your inner narrative as reality


I will glady consider the error in my reasoning.

 

[Jarred Land]

But we are not doing scientific studies, we create art and cinematography. Rolling shutters rarely create problems on professional cameras these days and I've never really heard anyone doing a project that they had problems..

That's funny.. because we hear about it on almost every single major production... and that's not a RED thing.. its an everything thing. People just have learned to live with it. Just a few weeks ago the cameras that you are comparing Komodo to were eliminated from a major production because of it. Again.... Komodo exists because our high end customers asked us to solve that. And we did.

But anyways... what you are asking for is a completely different camera... and a camera that we already make. When you say give us double the framerates and these other things and then we will pay double the price... And I'll say go check out the Dragon-X.

Again.. I understand the confusion.

 

[Christoffer Glans]

- 56000 posts in this thread of your specs/market positioning/business strategy/wishful thinking fantasy process, about a camera which is not even out yet, and most of info about it is not available

Are you saying that on an online forum, some people should be silent, even though their remarks, criticism, questions, suggestions and speculation drives a discourse better than random comments about nothing? What is your point? That you don't like what I say? That is not the same as trying to point out that a frequent poster on an online forum should stay quiet just because you dislike it, which is essentially what you say here.

- Ty's comment on the post I quoted suggesting you went off-board with a specs/price comment

Ty's comment was irrelevant since all it was had to do with complaining that I sound negative. As far as I know, I don't do ad hominems and questioning, criticizing, making suggestions, analyzing the market, speculating about Komodo should be something everyone is doing. Why do some feel the need to tell others to be quiet? This is a place where customers of Red can have a discourse of the tech and have communication with Red directly. Both you and Ty comments on another user's viability to speak out. If you don't like it, skip through it, you two are in no place to judge the existence of another member of this forum. Simple as that.

If you think I'm off the mark, comment on that specific thing, why its off the mark and I'll answer that, the rest is just unnecessary noise far more than any post on topic that I've written.

- The intro of the other post where you comment his reaction, suggesting a reality check by perceiving your inner narrative as reality

Maybe you should read it again and see what context it's about. My remark was in relation to the Hydrogen release in which people flooded with praises of something that they knew close to nothing about. Praising something without specs and info is not the same as putting forth questions and criticism based on the info we know. The remark I answered to were the idea that I have an agenda with what I write. The simple answer is that I don't have any agenda, but I like to chime in with the questions and criticism that was so needed during the Hydrogen reveal since there was a lot of kool-aid going into that one. A few did the same thing back then, but were just as criticized as having an agenda when they questioned the fact the processor of the phone was last gen, that the holo-screen might not be enough for it to take off
on the market. That was what I mean by a reality check, to be another voice through the constant blind praises to this. Of course, some people don't like discourse, don't like criticism, don't like people questioning stuff. But you have no real right to boss around just because you don't like it.

And the reasoning behind it is simple. To question, criticize and speculate as I do has the purpose of urging improvements to Komodo. I have my personal interest in staying within the Red infrastructure and I want Komodo to be even better than what has been speculated based on the info given from Jarred. Just saying "awesome camera!!!" won't do any of that. Only by asking for improvements will that come to the table. Just take the many criticizing posts people made about proprietary media and how they instead wanted something like CFast... Jarred's response was to implement it to Komodo and write "we listened".

Jarred and Red constantly listen to us users, to our concerns and suggestions. If I'm painted as the annoying guy through how much I discuss these things I would like to see improved on the Komodo, I really don't care as long as there's a little chance of pushing the tech a little further.

So, with the way you jump onto criticizing the way I write, how little you like my posts, Ty's remark that he thinks I sound negative in my posts, I wonder what you want to achieve?

And maybe I do have an agenda... I want Komodo to be better than what we can speculate from the info we know. And we can speculate quite accurately based on the info released. That is my agenda with this. Stop thinking of it as a complimentary camera, stop thinking of it as dislocated from the market, just make a damn good small A-Cam for a low price. And through that I see further improvements that I think are necessary, such as increasing fps at FF. You can call that "wishful thinking fantasy", I see it as urging Red to improve upon the camera they are developing. And I think you should stop playing a forum moderator with personal forum rules, I do precisely what this forum is meant for, discourse.