Komodo new users doubts

[Alessandro Artini]

Hello! I'm new user of komodo and I have a pair of doubts (for now)

First:
I like the colors and the dr very much, i fell really cinematic, but i see a LOT of noise in the shadow, the image i attach is an example.
1:1 crop, r3d HQ 6k

https://drive.google.com/file/d/10K8MZO8lsLPk87CSIIzkVXniyl3V3rWg/view?usp=sharing
Download for full res, preview is not realistic

First clip after black shading

Da Vinci Camera Raw:

Iso 800
IPP2
Color Space rec 709
Gamma BT.1886
Contrast medium
Rolloff high
Chroma noise reduction on
Decode quality Full Res Premium 16 bit


is it normal?
I know cinema cameras need light, but there is a lot of noise.


Second:
I see that the image guide are very poor, I only found the way to make the marker lines, but it is possible to reduce the opacity of the areas outside the choosen aspect?
For example, if I record in 6k DCI, but I select the 2:39 guides, is it possible to make darker the zones over and under, outside the 2,39:1 guides? Only the lines are confusing.

Thank you!!

 

[Jonathan Petts]

Hi Alessandro,

Could you post a single frame R3D from REDCINE-X for us to look at? Mainly to see what was going on exposure wise as it may just be under exposed in that area. You can generate one of these from within the app see here and the file will only be a few MB.

Are you familiar with the exposure tools on the camera? As these will help you understand when the image is under or over exposed & also where on the image. There are some details here under 'Exposure'.

Additionally there are also some great articles on this:
https://www.red.com/learn/get-started/options?article=red-camera-exposure-tools
https://www.red.com/learn/get-started/options?article=exposure-false-color-zebra-tools

On the shading this is not currently possible in camera but many monitors like SmallHD can do this locally on the monitor for you.

 

[Bill Ravens]

First of all, the literature is quite clear. Most cameras use rolling shutters because they are much more noise free under low light conditions. The Komodo full frame shutter is not like a rolling frame shutter. Second, I've been quite impressed with the level of low light noise the Komodo has. Proper exposure is important, as much as shooting with sufficient light.

 

[Christoffer Glans]

Da Vinci Camera Raw:

Iso 800
IPP2
Color Space rec 709
Gamma BT.1886
Contrast medium
Rolloff high
Chroma noise reduction on
Decode quality Full Res Premium 16 bit


is it normal?
I know cinema cameras need light, but there is a lot of noise.

Your image is of a part that is underexposed. It's just how shadows react on the sensor, you can darken that part even more as long as you have a subject in frame that is lit. You can also do noise reduction (preferably something better than Resolve own NR), since this is done in-camera on many other brands as long as they don't shoot true RAW. Also, if you are shooting low-key, lower the ISO to get cleaner shadows. I try to shoot low-key at ISO500. When in bright outdoor locations I usually shoot 800-1600 in order to get better highlights.

I usually don't feel like the noise is a problem. What is the problem with the noise really? Is it going to be a VFX shot that relies on a lot of hard tracking? Or is it that you don't like the noise and want something super-clean? The image is also a crop-in, why? The image usually downscales to distribution formats like 4K, so that removes a lot of noise also. Viewing distances and compression also kills noise.

At the end of the day, noise doesn't mean anything. Alexa Mini is extremely noisy, but is commonly used with minimal color grading manipulation and it looks great on an IMAX screen anyway (lieMAX though). Why is the noise you see in underexposed areas a problem?

 

[Christoffer Glans]

First of all, the literature is quite clear. Most cameras use rolling shutters because they are much more noise free under low light conditions. The Komodo full frame shutter is not like a rolling frame shutter. Second, I've been quite impressed with the level of low light noise the Komodo has. Proper exposure is important, as much as shooting with sufficient light.

It has better noise handling than Alexa Mini, which is still one of the most popular cameras for cinematic releases. Then, the image needs to be looked at in its 4K output format. After color grading, processing etc. Just zooming in on the R3D file means nothing.

 

[Alessandro Artini]

First of all thanks for the replies. :smiley:
Yes, I am familiar with exposure tools, I am not surprised for the presence of noise in underexposed areas, I am surprised that there is so much of it.

Seeing reviews around there are also who consider the Komodo a good camera for low light, and perhaps this has surprised me.
I will avoid going beyond ISO 500 in darker situations as suggested by Christoffer

Trying to remember it seems to me that it is much noisier than the other reds, alexas and even blackmagics, I place an r3d frame, it is not optimal but it is the best I have without faces.
I will try to place another one in the next days when I have the camera available.

https://drive.google.com/file/d/1jinrT_FM4XwjFoPRyK9bEYs7wDJokQUH/view?usp=sharing


For the aspect marker can you tell me something?

Thank You!

 

[Christoffer Glans]

Trying to remember it seems to me that it is much noisier than the other reds, alexas and even blackmagics

Blackmagic handles noise well, but color science and DR handling are awful in comparison. Normal Alexas suffers from a lot of noise in ISO800 and it doesn't help projects with a 2K or 3K to 4K upscale either. Other Red's are cleaner if you mean Monstro and Gemini, but Helium might have lower noise but really bad handling of noise while Dragon has beautiful noise for a digital sensor, but has a lot of it. Shooting Dragon is a good choice for those who want to have kind of good-looking noise/grain in their footage. The low-light pushes I've done at ISO1600 on Komodo still holds up better than many other cameras I've tried. I think it has to do with the global shutter managing other aspects of image rendering than just noise handling. So the noise might be a bit more than some cameras, but since the overall image is handled well and balanced, the eye "lands on" a smoother feel to the images. Something that happens more on Alexa cameras than Red cameras.

Even though you get better blacks at ISO500 low-key, you can easily shoot ISO1600, do more complex noise reduction and re-introduce grain in form of 35mm emulation plug-ins. That way you will get a very uniform looking grain that can smooth up images for any distribution with enough bandwidth to show it.

Noise is a very hard thing to utilize today since streaming often kills it or makes the image worse due to compression errors. So the choice is usually to remove it completely with NR or to re-introduce grain and have high streaming datarates. I think Disney and Netflix are the only ones who really can land on a bandwidth that can handle noise and grain pretty well, but would be nice to have more.

 

[Phil Holland]

This looks in bounds for me and expected behavior, I wouldn't even say that's "too noisy" for shadow values falling that range either.

Add into the mix, the RED IPP2 Output Transform being used is the Low Contrast/Very Soft variety, which will "illuminate" shadows a bit more.

For years now pretty much the first experience I see from those working with RAW (RED, ARRI, SONY, CANON) are taken aback by visible noise. You have to keep in mind there's no noise reduction going on when using the RAW Codecs offered by these manufacturers. However, when using things like ProRes or H.265 (lossy baked in mezzanine codecs) you will often see noise reduction applied or even have control over that noise reduction to taste. I believe even Komodo in ProRes mode has NR applied as well, need to double check, I pretty much have only shot RAW for the last decade+ and only tapped into ProRes in camera a few times ever.

Outside of that, lovely image Alessandro, really like the focus roll-off on that lens. Nice skin too.

 

[Rick Cook]

I find shooting and monitoring with Low contrast to be tricky. It just lifts the black into a toe area where that noise exists like Phil mentioned. You're sort of tricking yourself into thinking there is clean usable detail in those areas when there really isn't. I stick with Medium Contrast while shooting and never deviate. Even then the final image usually needs some contrast added in the grade.

When Chroma Noise reduction is active I personally think the noise level in the image you shared is pretty clean. Just my taste though.